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Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: rigpimp on March 15, 2018, 03:11:44 PM

Title: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: rigpimp on March 15, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
I have been offered a Schoeps VMS 02IB as part of a package deal and wanted to know if there is a secondary market for this box still.  I don't want to sink money into a pricey MS rig if I cannot offload the parts that I do not want.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: perks on March 15, 2018, 04:10:02 PM
Just throwing out my guestimate from watching these in the YS. I'm thinking a VMS could sell to someone interested in running a genuine Schoeps pre for around $500-$600. But with all the options available today not everybody is looking for a stand alone pre anymore.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: noahbickart on March 15, 2018, 04:39:02 PM
Not much, a least for this Schoeps m/s taper.

The existence of the PFA and the ease of M/S conversion either live (on a modern all in one pre/ad) or in post means that there are smaller solutions to get m/s actives to a preamp.

Chris King was nice enough to lend me his for a while. It's cool looking, but my old littlebox does the same thing, fits my bag better, has longer battery life, and I don't think I hear any sonic improvement. 


I take all of this back. I was wrong. I ended up with a kcy only VMS, and think it's just wonderful.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: yug du nord on March 15, 2018, 05:53:40 PM
I never ran M/S with one, but I ran one for a couple of years with 41's and absolutely dug it.  Sounded great IMO. 
They seem to sit in the YS for a while these days it seems...  and sell for much less than they use to.
Anywhere from $400-$700 has been the "going rate" for the last few in the YS I think.  But they sit for a while.

If you have a KCY cable, and can get it for a fair price....  go for it!  You don't need to strictly run M/S with it.
M/S is more easily flexible in post anyways.

But yeah...  if it breaks, call Vark Audio and hopefully they can help. 
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: H₂O on March 15, 2018, 10:51:08 PM
I am assuming this is for the rig in France that's been up for a while - The VMS looks older (flat black and not nextel grey) - regardless:


VMS 02ib ~ $500
KCY5i      ~$500
MK4         ~$400
MK8 (wide vents) ~$750
Rycote setup  ~$200


So at the current price of 1500 euros it's not to bad deal if your looking to pick up the mk8.

The VMS is also not very popular right now so it may take longer to sell even at $500


FWIW - I don't give tips on these foreign deals anymore as there hasn't been much interest and when there is it causes to much pressure on the sellers.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 17, 2018, 04:39:20 PM
...and I don't think I hear any sonic improvement.

After owning three littleboxes one tinybox and many VMS's, I strongly disagree with this statement.  VMSs are still great preamps, but yes their value has decreased of late...not the least of which is the completely false information spread on taperssection that they can't be repaired.

Vark Audio works on them and does a great job.  The older smaller VMS preamps have three boards and the vast majority of the components on the boards are readily replaceable.  The major components that I know of that aren't replaceable are the front switches on the older small VMS preamps and the boards themselves.  But most repairs consist of replacement of readily available electronic parts...diodes, capacitors, transistors, etc. 

I believe that the VMS5U is still sold by Schoeps so parts availability on that one should not be an issue.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: noahbickart on March 19, 2018, 10:44:14 AM
...and I don't think I hear any sonic improvement.

After owning three littleboxes one tinybox and many VMS's, I strongly disagree with this statement.

How can you disagree with a statement about what I think I hear?

I suspect you are really saying that you think you hear a difference between the littlebox and the schoeps. Fair enough. But I'm suspicious.

I'm game. Perhaps in the same vein as the mixpre6 vs. sx-r4 comp, we should do a mk22> kcy > littlebox vs. vms double blind comp. Dsatz is on the record challenging the widespread notion that different solid state preamps make much if any difference with Schoeps capsules. Then again the mixpre6 vs. sx-r4 did sound somewhat different.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: jbell on March 19, 2018, 05:57:16 PM
Just thought I'd add some to the conversation!!  I ran a VMS 5U for a few years into a Sony PCM D100.  It sounds very different than running my mics directly into the Sound devices Mixpre-6.  I don't prefer one over the other, but different flavors for sure.  I also ran a Littlebox and Tinybox for a long time I was an early adopter and had one of the first KCY Littlebox preamps.  I actually liked the Tinybox sound better and eventually sold of my Littlebox.  I ran the same Schoeps mic setup for years into a lot of preamps to list a few VMS02ib, EAA PSP2, Aeta PSP3, Aerco MP-2, Grace V2, and Grace V3 ACM.  All pres seemed to influence the sound IMO and really depends on your preference as to what a person will enjoy listening to.  Just my 2 cents.   
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 20, 2018, 07:45:05 AM
All pres seemed to influence the sound IMO ...

Of course they do!  The notion that all solid state preamps sound the same is ridiculous.  If one's ears are telling them otherwise, something else is at stake, like perhaps confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 20, 2018, 07:48:31 AM
Dsatz is on the record challenging the widespread notion that different solid state preamps make much if any difference with Schoeps capsules.

If you're going to attribute such a statement to DSatz, I recommend quoting him rather than paraphrasing.  I strongly suspect you've misrepresented whatever he said, because your statement, on its own seems ridiculous to me.

Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: hi and lo on March 20, 2018, 08:19:21 AM
Dsatz is on the record challenging the widespread notion that different solid state preamps make much if any difference with Schoeps capsules.

If you're going to attribute such a statement to DSatz, I recommend quoting him rather than paraphrasing.  I strongly suspect you've misrepresented whatever he said, because your statement, on its own seems ridiculous to me.

I can't disagree that quotes are better, but it's actually pretty much spot on (minus the last three words because it applies to all capsules).

The purpose of a preamp is to amplify the signal at all frequencies equally. Can a preamp be designed to flavor the sound? Absolutely and there are certainly differences, but in general that is not their designed purpose. The frequency response should be ruler flat from 20Hz - 20kHz and in the age of digital EQ tools and excellent all-in-one recorders I have no idea why anyone would want to rely on a piece of hardware downstream of the capsule to flavor the sound. Well, other than for fun. I've owned and run pretty much every preamp under the sun, but I'm usually happiest running straight into all-in-one because it's one less point of failure.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 20, 2018, 09:29:04 AM
Dsatz is on the record challenging the widespread notion that different solid state preamps make much if any difference with Schoeps capsules.

If you're going to attribute such a statement to DSatz, I recommend quoting him rather than paraphrasing.  I strongly suspect you've misrepresented whatever he said, because your statement, on its own seems ridiculous to me.

I can't disagree that quotes are better, but it's actually pretty much spot on (minus the last three words because it applies to all capsules).

The purpose of a preamp is to amplify the signal at all frequencies equally. Can a preamp be designed to flavor the sound? Absolutely and there are certainly differences, but in general that is not their designed purpose. The frequency response should be ruler flat from 20Hz - 20kHz and in the age of digital EQ tools and excellent all-in-one recorders I have no idea why anyone would want to rely on a piece of hardware downstream of the capsule to flavor the sound. Well, other than for fun. I've owned and run pretty much every preamp under the sun, but I'm usually happiest running straight into all-in-one because it's one less point of failure.

But all preamps don't amplify the signal at all frequencies equally.  You yourself have in the past stated How some preamps cause the low end to muddy up.  Once the low end breaks up even a little bit, no back end can restore it.

This doesn't regard that preamps are also responsible for maintaining the sonic qualities of the sound to maintain transparency...eg the timbres, soundstage, etc.

That said I'd like to read the details behind the logic that suggests that a lower end preamp is just as good as the higher end...since that's what seemed to spark this debate.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: noahbickart on March 20, 2018, 02:33:55 PM
But all preamps don't amplify the signal at all frequencies equally.

Microphone preamps used for recording music, like the ones we are discussing in this thread, are all essentially flat in their frequency response. if you want to cut or boost frequencies, wouldn't you use an EQ in post?

But enough talk, who's got schoeps caps and a preamp they'd like to do a blind test with? I'll provide the kcy, extension cables and a mixpre6!
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 20, 2018, 04:42:07 PM
But enough talk, who's got schoeps caps and a preamp they'd like to do a blind test with? I'll provide the kcy, extension cables and a mixpre6!

Can't you comp your littlebox against your mixpre-6?
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: noahbickart on March 20, 2018, 05:46:36 PM
But enough talk, who's got schoeps caps and a preamp they'd like to do a blind test with? I'll provide the kcy, extension cables and a mixpre6!

Can't you comp your littlebox against your mixpre-6?

Not without multiple pairs of the same capsule. I suppose I could do mono comparisons.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 20, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
But enough talk, who's got schoeps caps and a preamp they'd like to do a blind test with? I'll provide the kcy, extension cables and a mixpre6!

Can't you comp your littlebox against your mixpre-6?

Not without multiple pairs of the same capsule. I suppose I could do mono comparisons.

Or just do what I do when I'm trying to decide about what gear to keep and what to sell...use the opener at a show you're taping.  Record a song or two with one piece of gear and then swap.  People will of course comment about the validity of the comp, but that's true of just about every comp that's done.  It's still a comparison that legit conclusions can be gathered from.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: DSatz on March 22, 2018, 11:43:35 PM
larrysellers, I recently bought a used VMS 02 IB on this board and sent it to Schoeps for checkout and repair; they returned it last week with two things fixed (one electronic, one mechanical). So they do still repair these at least some of the time. There may be some things they can't fix any more, I dunno, like if you run over it with a steamroller and then ask them to replace 100% of the parts. But there isn't a total ban to be sure.

Edited later to add: Sorry to say, in mid-2018 Schoeps discontinued nearly all repair support for VMS-series preamps.

--About preamp sound: I don't hear differences among preamps that I would ever use--the ones with very flat frequency response, low noise and distortion, adequate input impedance, common mode rejection and overload margins, proper phantom powering and no "pin 1" problem. It's possible to get all those things right and achieve sonic transparency for all practical purposes--and that's the approach I favor.

Certainly there are sonic differences among some preamps, and maybe 50+ years ago that situation was unavoidable. But nowadays it would only be because some people want and expect there to be such differences, so some manufacturers deliberately give their products a distinctive sonic "character" or "signature" of some kind. The only problem is, any deviation from neutral can (at best) have a favorable effect on the sound only sometimes. In other cases any given flavoring will make the sound "different, but not better," while in still other cases it logically MUST make the sound worse.

Imagine if you had an audio circuit that made ALL signals "sound better" regardless of what you fed into it. You could use it on ANY pre-recorded signal, store the result, then put that result through the same circuit again, and the signal would by definition come out sounding even better the second time around. If you then repeated the cycle further, the sound would keep sounding better and better indefinitely.

If something about that scenario sounds wrong, you've taken your first step into a wider world ...

--best regards
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: larrysellers on March 23, 2018, 07:21:21 AM
larrysellers, I recently bought a used VMS 02 IB on this board and sent it to Schoeps for checkout and repair; they returned it last week with two things fixed (one electronic, one mechanical). So they do still repair these at least some of the time. There may be some things they can't fix any more, I dunno, like if you run over it with a steamroller and then ask them to replace 100% of the parts. But there isn't a total ban to be sure.

Thank you for the update. I sent them one a few years ago and they returned it unrepaired due to a lack of parts.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: yug du nord on March 23, 2018, 10:44:06 AM
I don't think that any sonic "flavor" of certain preamps can technically make the signal sound better.  But I firmly believe that the sonic "flavor" of certain preamps do sound different.
To my ears, there is a difference in the sound of an Aeta PSP-3 and a Sonosax SX-M2.  Or a Grace Lunatec V2/V3 and an Aerco MP-2.  Or a Sound Devices MixPre and a Sound Devices USBPre 2.  Or even a Grace V2/V3 and a SD 7xx sound different to me. 
Two different preamps can be absolutely transparent...   but some preamps are lively and "musical"...  and some are dry and "clinical".

While there are many "top notch" preamps that all sound great and do the same job, some have a certain mojo and some don't. 
Sometimes mojo is preferred, sometimes it's not....  and not to say that the VMS is better than other top notch preamp..  but to me, the VMS has some mojo.  A certain smoothness that other preamps don't have.   

At least that how things seem to my ears.   :shrug:


Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: fanofjam on March 23, 2018, 12:13:51 PM
I don't think that any sonic "flavor" of certain preamps can technically make the signal sound better.  But I firmly believe that the sonic "flavor" of certain preamps do sound different.
To my ears, there is a difference in the sound of an Aeta PSP-3 and a Sonosax SX-M2.  Or a Grace Lunatec V2/V3 and an Aerco MP-2.  Or a Sound Devices MixPre and a Sound Devices USBPre 2.  Or even a Grace V2/V3 and a SD 7xx sound different to me. 
Two different preamps can be absolutely transparent...   but some preamps are lively and "musical"...  and some are dry and "clinical".

While there are many "top notch" preamps that all sound great and do the same job, some have a certain mojo and some don't. 
Sometimes mojo is preferred, sometimes it's not....  and not to say that the VMS is better than other top notch preamp..  but to me, the VMS has some mojo.  A certain smoothness that other preamps don't have.   

At least that how things seem to my ears.   :shrug:

I agree.  What's the first question that's asked whenever new gear comes out...What do the preamps sound like?

Also to suggest otherwise is the analogy of saying that every mod Oade ever did to stock gear is basically just snake oil.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: perks on March 29, 2018, 01:47:36 PM
This thread inspired me to take the PSP-2 out of my bag for a bit to run the VMS52UB again as I had not used it in a while. Fanofjam helped me get adequate powering solutions for running a VMS in lo profile situations a while back and I really love the way my recordings sound when I use this amp.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: noahbickart on October 08, 2018, 09:01:38 AM
Dsatz is on the record challenging the widespread notion that different solid state preamps make much if any difference with Schoeps capsules.

If you're going to attribute such a statement to DSatz, I recommend quoting him rather than paraphrasing.  I strongly suspect you've misrepresented whatever he said, because your statement, on its own seems ridiculous to me.

This is like that scene in Annie Hall, when Marshall McLuhan himself shows up to disprove what someone is saying about his work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE

--About preamp sound: I don't hear differences among preamps that I would ever use--the ones with very flat frequency response, low noise and distortion, adequate input impedance, common mode rejection and overload margins, proper phantom powering and no "pin 1" problem. It's possible to get all those things right and achieve sonic transparency for all practical purposes--and that's the approach I favor.

Certainly there are sonic differences among some preamps, and maybe 50+ years ago that situation was unavoidable. But nowadays it would only be because some people want and expect there to be such differences, so some manufacturers deliberately give their products a distinctive sonic "character" or "signature" of some kind. The only problem is, any deviation from neutral can (at best) have a favorable effect on the sound only sometimes. In other cases any given flavoring will make the sound "different, but not better," while in still other cases it logically MUST make the sound worse.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: DSatz on December 25, 2018, 08:36:39 PM
Earlier in this thread I mentioned that Schoeps had recently repaired my VMS 02 IB, which had one electrical problem and one mechanical problem.

In case someone is reading this thread after (roughly) fall, 2018, I should mention that Schoeps has adopted a new repair policy, and if I understand it correctly, for the most part they won't repair VMS 02 or VMS 52 preamps any more. I guess I was lucky that I sent mine in when I did.

--best regards
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: noahbickart on December 26, 2018, 06:37:16 PM
Earlier in this thread I mentioned that Schoeps had recently repaired my VMS 02 IB, which had one electrical problem and one mechanical problem.

In case someone is reading this thread after (roughly) fall, 2018, I should mention that Schoeps has adopted a new repair policy, and if I understand it correctly, for the most part they won't repair VMS 02 or VMS 52 preamps any more. I guess I was lucky that I sent mine in when I did.

--best regards

Oy gevalt.

I'm just starting to enjoy my VMS 02 IB, which I finally have well integrated into my rig.

Now I'm paranoid about breaking the AA box and no hope of repairs to the rest of it. Maybe I shouldn't sell by KCY M/S Littlebox, it might be a crucial backup.
Title: Re: Market for Schoeps VMS 02IB
Post by: jadedphan on February 18, 2019, 11:06:46 PM
Pm sent