Author Topic: Close In Stack Taping (Read 6118 times)

nathan_g · « **on:** August 22, 2009, 09:12:49 PM »

Here's the deal. I know stack taping has been covered plenty. I've searched and read the posts. That said, I haven't read anything that totally covers my situation.

I'm going to a show this coming Monday, solo acoustic in an old movie theater, front row about 5-6 feet directly in front of the stack, reasonable volume. The stack(s) are at roughly head level, totally 007. I've previously taped in the same venue on several occasions with at943 omnis and the results have been very nice. The one glaring issue has been loud, vocal clappers. Since my last real outing I picked up some hyper caps. Clearly they eliminate the noisy folks to some degree but I haven't had enough chances to use them to become totally comfortable with them - haven't taped close in with them. My worry is that they may be so directional that I leave the proverbial 'hole in the middle'. I've taped the home playback and that sounds fine but the circumstances aren't very real world. The question is do I run omnis or hypers. The spacing will be the average width of an adult male neck. Any input other than 'stealth taping is wrong, blah, blah, blah' would be appreciated. The artist doesn't care, said so to me personally, management doesn't agree, venue is a wildcard.

The omnis have always done me right and the clappers have been taken care of in post but I'd prefer a cleaner source, without all the post work.

darby · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2009, 09:46:38 PM »

4 inch spacing should not be a problem with Hypers

nathan_g · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2009, 09:59:53 PM »

4 inch neck...you flatter me

I'm a pretty big guy. That said, I get your meaning and appreciate the response. Maybe I'll get carded for smokes next...that'd make my day...

darby · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:04:26 PM »

my neck might be 5 inches at the most... you must be a big guy

EDIT:
that's still less than DINa... so you should be fine

nathan_g · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:07:46 PM »

Never really measured it...I wear an 18" collar, fwiw. Sure feels big. I also have a twisted, self deprecating sense of humor...

nathan_g · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:17:12 PM »

I look more like the Michelin Man every day...started around age 30 with the beer & hot peanuts diet

So much for aging gracefully...

Please correct me if I'm wrong here - DIN is 20cm spread @ 90deg. while DINa is 17cm @90deg?

darby · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:24:26 PM »

Quote from: nathan_g on August 22, 2009, 10:17:12 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong here - DIN is 20cm spread @ 90deg. while DINa is 17cm @90deg?

that is correct

nathan_g · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:54:09 PM »

Many thanks...

chrisnubar · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:52:46 AM »

it's the way mics are designed to be used - a few feet away, not 100 yds away pointed sideways.. the best would be if you had a friend on the other stack and you combined it later. in my opinion.

acidjack · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2009, 06:54:21 PM »

Quote from: nathan_g on August 22, 2009, 09:12:49 PM

Here's the deal. I know stack taping has been covered plenty. I've searched and read the posts. That said, I haven't read anything that totally covers my situation.

I'm going to a show this coming Monday, solo acoustic in an old movie theater, front row about 5-6 feet directly in front of the stack, reasonable volume. The stack(s) are at roughly head level, totally 007. I've previously taped in the same venue on several occasions with at943 omnis and the results have been very nice. The one glaring issue has been loud, vocal clappers. Since my last real outing I picked up some hyper caps. Clearly they eliminate the noisy folks to some degree but I haven't had enough chances to use them to become totally comfortable with them - haven't taped close in with them. My worry is that they may be so directional that I leave the proverbial 'hole in the middle'. I've taped the home playback and that sounds fine but the circumstances aren't very real world. The question is do I run omnis or hypers. The spacing will be the average width of an adult male neck. Any input other than 'stealth taping is wrong, blah, blah, blah' would be appreciated. The artist doesn't care, said so to me personally, management doesn't agree, venue is a wildcard.

The omnis have always done me right and the clappers have been taken care of in post but I'd prefer a cleaner source, without all the post work.

If you can get that close to the stack, I think you'd be better off with the omnis... you'll get a much richer sounding recording. IMHO the hypers with the AT mics are not very good - I have taped everything from soft acoustic to loud rock with them and never really liked the results, though they do of course cut out clapping. But if you can stack tape close, go omnis every time, IMHO.

nathan_g · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:00:41 PM »

I agree about the omnis sounding better. The hypers come off sounding sort of 'thin' if that makes any sense. I might try to catch the opener with the hypers then slip outside and give it a quick listen in the car and make a quick decision before the main act.

I have a friend that will almost surely be at this show...probably sitting very close by. He's one of these people that has to clap the loudest, and when he's particularly impressed with something he enthusiastically shouts "YEAH, YEAH!" at ear splitting volume. It's really obnoxious. Since I started taping he's made efforts to tone it down a notch whenever I'm around but the casual observer would never know it. The last two shows I've pulled at this venue have been marred primarily by this superfan BS. Thing is, he always arrives early and saves me a seat...usually a great seat, ironically because he knows that I'm taping. There's really no way to address it with him without seeming like a total prick, so...c'est la vie. I'll have a great time either way...I'll just be staring at Audition for about 12 hours the next day...

I think I'll give him the raw, unedited copy with no post whatsoever...

dean · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:28:19 PM »

Quote from: acidjack on August 23, 2009, 06:54:21 PM

...if you can stack tape close, go omnis every time, IMHO.

Agreed on the omnis, but I'm a biased observer - a total omni slut. I've actually had great luck with the 943's further from the stack (40'). But I think they'd sound just fine up close.

Quote from: nathan_g on August 23, 2009, 09:00:41 PM

I might try to catch the opener with the hypers then slip outside and give it a quick listen in the car and make a quick decision before the main act.

Excellent idea. Hope you actually do this. The comp would be nice to have.

Quote from: nathan_g on August 23, 2009, 09:00:41 PM

I think I'll give him the raw, unedited copy with no post whatsoever...

You should make him a mix of just his hootin', hollerin' and loud clapping!

nathan_g · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:44:45 PM »

Maybe make it a 'hidden' track at the end of the disc. Add about 2-3 minutes of silence at the end of the last track, then...YEAH, YEAH!! WOOOOO!! for a few minutes...

I've always been pleased by the sound of the omnis. Part of it is the fact that I haven't really had much of a chance to use the hypers. To me, they're still new and I wanna use 'em. Besides quieting the audience with the hypers, will it really make that much of a difference (omnis/hypers) considering the close stack proximity?

dean · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:46:55 PM »

Quote from: nathan_g on August 23, 2009, 09:44:45 PM

Maybe make it a 'hidden' track at the end of the disc. Add about 2-3 minutes of silence at the end of the last track, then...YEAH, YEAH!! WOOOOO!! for a few minutes...

I've always been pleased by the sound of the omnis. Part of it is the fact that I haven't really had much of a chance to use the hypers. To me, they're still new and I wanna use 'em. Besides quieting the audience with the hypers, will it really make that much of a difference (omnis/hypers) considering the close stack proximity?

IMO, you'll get a quality product either way. But I do think there would be a very clear difference in how each sounded. I'm really pulling for you to do the hyper for the opener and the omnis for the main act for the comparison. Just think what you'd be doing for future generations of tapers!

Hidden track idea is fantastic, actually!

nathan_g · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:53:52 PM »

Hopefully future generations won't be in the bittersweet position of having a great seat directly next to such a blowhard...

If circumstances permit, I'll do the comp. I'm pretty curious myself. I appreciate all the input.

edit to add:

Dude's actually a nice guy...just VERY enthusiastic. And I totally appreciate the great seats, past and present.

dean · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2009, 10:35:09 PM »

I used to be "that guy" before I started getting into video, then audio. I'm still extremely enthusiastic about music, but I'm pretty silent. Funny, too, because I used to think it was good to show that level of enthusiasm, but now I think it's just obnoxious, and I can't imagine that the artists appreciate it at all.

nathan_g · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2009, 10:51:42 PM »

I've been 'that guy' myself on a few occasions - all long before picking up the hobby. To me, it largely depends on the venue and type of scene/music. I typically only go to quieter, acoustic type shows or moderately loud ones on occasion. In either case, the stuff I listen to anymore typically appeals to a more 'grown up' audience. Drunken louts are usually shouted down either by those around them or heckled to the point of embarrassment by the performer. Love it when that happens.

I've seen Steve Earle say "I remember my first beer too..." several times.

darby · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2009, 11:41:17 PM »

I was even that guy myself when i first started taping
I have a Muddy Waters tape I did way back in 81
that wasn't too bad considering the cheap deck with built in mic
but I got to the point that his performance got to me so much
I had to start yelling OH YEAH! and WOO! during Mannish Boy

as far as the Hypers you will cut out a great deal of him
then as you suggested, switch caps and do a comp
the hidden track is nice... but don't put too much blank space on the front
make sure he has to hear it before he turns the disc off

acidjack · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2009, 09:16:22 AM »

Quote from: nathan_g on August 23, 2009, 09:44:45 PM

Maybe make it a 'hidden' track at the end of the disc. Add about 2-3 minutes of silence at the end of the last track, then...YEAH, YEAH!! WOOOOO!! for a few minutes...

I've always been pleased by the sound of the omnis. Part of it is the fact that I haven't really had much of a chance to use the hypers. To me, they're still new and I wanna use 'em. Besides quieting the audience with the hypers, will it really make that much of a difference (omnis/hypers) considering the close stack proximity?

The whole element of your loud friend does change things a bit... though I have always found that people who clap/cheer BETWEEN songs, and even the occasional "yeah!" during one, are way, way, way less bad than my personal favorite, the people who carry on an entire, loud conversation during the song, especially quiet parts. Also, a few cheers you can deal with in post. Some girl talking about her fight with her boyfriend of whatever the fxck this person that is inevitably near me is always talking about, not so easy....

nathan_g · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2009, 10:18:49 AM »

Quote from: darby on August 23, 2009, 11:41:17 PM

I was even that guy myself when i first started taping
I have a Muddy Waters tape I did way back in 81
that wasn't too bad considering the cheap deck with built in mic
but I got to the point that his performance got to me so much
I had to start yelling OH YEAH! and WOO! during Mannish Boy

Hell, even the official release of Mannish Boy has a bunch of YEAH, WOO-WOO in it. Sounds like it was taped in a Mississippi juke joint. If anything, you probably lent it some character...

Quote from: acidjack on August 24, 2009, 09:16:22 AM

Quote from: nathan_g on August 23, 2009, 09:44:45 PM
Maybe make it a 'hidden' track at the end of the disc. Add about 2-3 minutes of silence at the end of the last track, then...YEAH, YEAH!! WOOOOO!! for a few minutes...

I've always been pleased by the sound of the omnis. Part of it is the fact that I haven't really had much of a chance to use the hypers. To me, they're still new and I wanna use 'em. Besides quieting the audience with the hypers, will it really make that much of a difference (omnis/hypers) considering the close stack proximity?

The whole element of your loud friend does change things a bit... though I have always found that people who clap/cheer BETWEEN songs, and even the occasional "yeah!" during one, are way, way, way less bad than my personal favorite, the people who carry on an entire, loud conversation during the song, especially quiet parts. Also, a few cheers you can deal with in post. Some girl talking about her fight with her boyfriend of whatever the fxck this person that is inevitably near me is always talking about, not so easy....

Yeah, I agree. As long as it's between songs it isn't that big of a deal. My friends and I usually take up anywhere from 3-6 consecutive seats and have known each other long enough to not have too much to say to each other - certainly not during a concert. My loud buddy is actually pretty helpful when it comes to the chatters. He's big and fairly rude - won't hesitate to tell someone to shut up or whatever problem they're discussing will be the least of their concerns...gotta love that.

What I can't stand are the one's that want to clap along...