Topic: Edirol R-09HR - Part THREE

[bgalizio]

Part TWO is here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.0.html

Last post:

OK. Will do this via Audacity then. 

Is there some way to completely shut off the display when recording?   When I set the Display Timer to 2 seconds and power-save, it never went off while recording.  Am I doing something wrong or is this a defective unit?

[Dede2002]

Dave570,

Stay away from the AGC or Limiter features for live music recording.

[guysonic]

ANOTHER consideration is recording sample rate.  While 48K/96K sample rate is standard for video projects, and gains 2K-4K Hz higher frequency bandwidth over 44.1K/88.2K rates, the latter rate is most compatible with CD type end use.

Recording at video audio rates, and then converting to CD compatible rates produces an inferior end result.  This is because of the 'non-integer' conversion process all editing programs must perform. 

While converting from 88.2K to CD 44.1K is exactly a divide by full integer number 2 giving most correct audio signal timing conversion of audio levels, the 48K or 96K conversion to uneven division 44.1K process is not so graceful and must 'assume' an audio level between samples (often just an approximation) that makes such conversion far less accurate.

So if your main interest is highest quality master recording that's intended for CD archival/distribution purposes, use native 24bit/44.1K or 88.2K sample rate for maintaining maximum conversion accuracy/audio quality.

[WiFiJeff]

Recording at video audio rates, and then converting to CD compatible rates produces an inferior end result.  This is because of the 'non-integer' conversion process all editing programs must perform. 

While converting from 88.2K to CD 44.1K is exactly a divide by full integer number 2 giving most correct audio signal timing conversion of audio levels, the 48K or 96K conversion to uneven division 44.1K process is not so graceful and must 'assume' an audio level between samples (often just an approximation) that makes such conversion far less accurate.

So if your main interest is highest quality master recording that's intended for CD archival/distribution purposes, use native 24bit/44.1K or 88.2K sample rate for maintaining maximum conversion accuracy/audio quality.

I have seen this plausible claim made many times.

What I have never seen is any claim that in a real A/B/X test anyone was actually able to reliably hear the difference.  Do you know of such an experiment? 

By the way, while the response to last year's Audio Engineering Society Journal report on high definition (24/96) PLAYBACK versus redbook (no detectable difference in hundreds of trials) has been heated, the AES finds none of it publishable because totally subjective and not reproducible.  They've opened a blog page for people to vent until someone comes up with a scientific rebutal.  This playback imposed a 16/44.1 filter on DVD-A output, so it would seem to be evidence that your claim is wrong.

Jeff

[Mr.Scully]

Took me a while to read through all the posts in the previous threads My equipment is Edirol R-09 HR, SP-CMC-8 (omnis and cardioids) and a SP battery box (with a bass roll off) is in post (hopefully it reaches me before I leave for the gigs). Unfortunately I won't have almost any time for testing so my first recording MUST be successful If I'm not mistaken, the basic rules for each of the options (we're talking about recording a loud rock gig) are as follows:

1. Edirol + battery box + mic
= limiter to off, AGC to off, low cut to off, mic gain to low, plug-in power to off, input level around 40-60 (line-in)

2. Edirol + mic (if the battery box doesn't arrive in time)
= similar as above; differences: mic-in instead of line-in, higher input level (60-70), plug-in power to on

SD Cards - Kingston have good reputation (SDHC, class 6)

Rechargables - standard rechargables (I have Sanyo 2000 mAh and some older 2500 mAh ones) should last at least 3-4 hours? I'll recharge all of them again before I use them, that might help gaining some of the "lost" capacity

Quality of recording - either 44k/24b or 88k/24b seems like a reasonable compromise between size and quality?

[Arni99]

Took me a while to read through all the posts in the previous threads My equipment is Edirol R-09 HR, SP-CMC-8 (omnis and cardioids) and a SP battery box (with a bass roll off) is in post (hopefully it reaches me before I leave for the gigs). Unfortunately I won't have almost any time for testing so my first recording MUST be successful If I'm not mistaken, the basic rules for each of the options (we're talking about recording a loud rock gig) are as follows:

1. Edirol + battery box + mic
= limiter to off, AGC to off, low cut to off, mic gain to low, plug-in power to off, input level around 40-60 (line-in)

2. Edirol + mic (if the battery box doesn't arrive in time)
= similar as above; differences: mic-in instead of line-in, higher input level (60-70), plug-in power to on

SD Cards - Kingston have good reputation (SDHC, class 6)

Rechargables - standard rechargables (I have Sanyo 2000 mAh and some older 2500 mAh ones) should last at least 3-4 hours? I'll recharge all of them again before I use them, that might help gaining some of the "lost" capacity

Quality of recording - either 44k/24b or 88k/24b seems like a reasonable compromise between size and quality?

When using MIC-IN you need LESS internal gain.
Not 60 =>LINE-IN, but around 40 I´d guess for MIC-IN.
MIC-IN on the r09hr is about +20db more sensitive than LINE-IN.
=>same signal recorded on LINE-IN peaks ie. at -30db on the levelmeter and on MIC-IN at -10db.

I used 60 gain with your equipment at an outdoor rockshow last week with cmc8 cardioids and bbox on line-in.
44.1/24bit is ok and gives you 2h15min until a new file starts at 2GB.

[Dede2002]

When using MIC-IN you need LESS internal gain.
Not 60 =>LINE-IN, but around 40 I´d guess for MIC-IN.
MIC-IN on the r09hr is about +20db more sensitive than LINE-IN.
=>same signal recorded on LINE-IN peaks ie. at -30db on the levelmeter and on MIC-IN at -10db.

What he said 

[dave570]

Different topic:  How many people have bought the Edirol cover & stand for their 09HR?  Is it worth it?  I know its over-priced.  And that stand looks rather weak. Is it really necessary?

[Dede2002]

Different topic:  How many people have bought the Edirol cover & stand for their 09HR?  Is it worth it?  I know its over-priced.  And that stand looks rather weak. Is it really necessary?

I can tell only one thing about those accesories:
stay away from the silcone/rubber case.
It's a dust magnet.

[polewka]

I've bought a brand new R-09HR and some AT943's and SP 2 BB from the yard sale a while back.

I'm way under impressed with the results.

I've taped about 10 shows so far and not happy with the results generally.

Obviously, the HR being new is fine I'm sure, but I've a horrible suspicion that the BB is not working properly.

I recorded Gary Numan last night. BB set at 107, rec input level at 12 and got a horribly distorted recording. The low level stuff (ie, synth intro's were fine and sounded great - the guitar and drums kicked in and just created a mess). I was about 5 meters in front of the soundboard, but think that I wasn't too close, surely 5 meters isn't going to ruin the recording (probably 10 meters from the stage lip I was)? I took great care to monitor what the rec. display was doing, and it peaked at 12db on the display, certainly not causing the peak / overload moniter LCD to trigger.

I'm growing rather annoyed at my consistantly poor recordings, and figure that the BB is broke. I want to buy a new one.

Can anyone recommend one that's small and easy to use?

Cheers and thanks for any further tips from a rather deflated Polewka

[guysonic]

I've bought a brand new R-09HR and some AT943's and SP 2 BB from the yard sale a while back.

I'm way under impressed with the results.

I've taped about 10 shows so far and not happy with the results generally.

Obviously, the HR being new is fine I'm sure, but I've a horrible suspicion that the BB is not working properly.

I recorded Gary Numan last night. BB set at 107, rec input level at 12 and got a horribly distorted recording. The low level stuff (ie, synth intro's were fine and sounded great - the guitar and drums kicked in and just created a mess). I was about 5 meters in front of the soundboard, but think that I wasn't too close, surely 5 meters isn't going to ruin the recording (probably 10 meters from the stage lip I was)? I took great care to monitor what the rec. display was doing, and it peaked at 12db on the display, certainly not causing the peak / overload moniter LCD to trigger.

I'm growing rather annoyed at my consistantly poor recordings, and figure that the BB is broke. I want to buy a new one.

Can anyone recommend one that's small and easy to use?

Cheers and thanks for any further tips from a rather deflated Polewka

Your deck input/settings used?

Using MIC input jack, BACK switches set to LOW input sensitivity/stereo , NO mic power/bass filter/limiter/agc

[Dede2002]

I've bought a brand new R-09HR and some AT943's and SP 2 BB from the yard sale a while back.

I'm way under impressed with the results.

I've taped about 10 shows so far and not happy with the results generally.

Obviously, the HR being new is fine I'm sure, but I've a horrible suspicion that the BB is not working properly.

I recorded Gary Numan last night. BB set at 107, rec input level at 12 and got a horribly distorted recording. The low level stuff (ie, synth intro's were fine and sounded great - the guitar and drums kicked in and just created a mess). I was about 5 meters in front of the soundboard, but think that I wasn't too close, surely 5 meters isn't going to ruin the recording (probably 10 meters from the stage lip I was)? I took great care to monitor what the rec. display was doing, and it peaked at 12db on the display, certainly not causing the peak / overload moniter LCD to trigger.

I'm growing rather annoyed at my consistantly poor recordings, and figure that the BB is broke. I want to buy a new one.

Can anyone recommend one that's small and easy to use?

Cheers and thanks for any further tips from a rather deflated Polewka

No panic.
Microphone Madness has a bb that is the same size as a Zippo ( Zippo is a cigarette lighter, for you guys who grew up under the impression that cigarettes has always been uncool)

[guitard]

Whoo!  Just got done reading from the first post in Part ONE right up to the post prior to this one.

I'm seriously considering getting an Edirol R-09HR. 

First let me explain my intentions for it.  I am mainly a videotaper.  Nothing beats a really well filmed show that's been synched with a really nice audio recording.  Of course, videocam mics are pretty much useless for concert recordings.  I've tried connecting mics to the videocam's A/V in/out jack with only limited success, and on more than one occasion, the jack became loose, and I ended up getting no audio or very messed up audio.

I bought a brand new Sony D-100 a few years ago and have used it a bit (maybe have put 30 hours on it).  But trying to manage a videocam along with a tape deck (and the battery box, audio tapes, mics, etc.) is just too much, especially in a stealth situation.

So I've been marveling at this Edirol R-09HR...

What I'd like to try and do is just set the levels as best I can, stick it in my breast pocket with the mics poking out of the top, and record with the internal mics.  Of course, I wouldn't expect audio quality that you would get with a set of quality mics, BB, pre, etc.  I'm just looking for something that'll be OK.  And yes, "OK" is about as subjective as it gets.  But just about anything beats a videocam's mic.

I saw one post in this (three section) thread that said it was a recording made using the internal mics.  But it turned out that the taper used mics.

I'd really like to hear some concert recordings made using the Edirol R-09HR's internal mic.  I found two at Dime:

Neil Young
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=209626

Patti Smith
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=207820

Does anyone know of any other such recordings?  Any comments/recommendations are also appreciated.  Thanks.

[Arni99]

I'd really like to hear some concert recordings made using the Edirol R-09HR's internal mic.  I found two at Dime:

Neil Young
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=209626

Patti Smith
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=207820

Does anyone know of any other such recordings?  Any comments/recommendations are also appreciated.  Thanks.

George Michael:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=207343

[fmaderjr]

Polewa-as to which small battery box you should get, I would consider staying away from the MM one previously recommended because it (if it is the model I am thinking of) uses three 3 volt lithium batteries and get one that uses easily obtainable 9 volt ones.

Chris Church's battery box is great and barely bigger than the 9 volt battery.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/STEREO-MICROPHONE-BATTERY-BOX-4-MINIDISC-MD-MP3-EDIROL_W0QQitemZ250198677272QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

You do need to buy a 1/8 to 1/8 output cable though (but this isn't so bad because it allows you to choose/vary the length of your cable). I use this tiny one and velco the battery box to the back of my recorder:
http://www.headphone.com/products/cables-and-adaptors/interconnects/headroom-4-inch-mini-to-mini.php

Only other downside is that it takes about a month to receive products form Chris, but they are worth the wait.