Topic: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?

[MarkE]

I've used a few different mics over the years for stealthing, those being:

Oade Micro Mics - GREAT SOUND. I like to tape by the stacks, so they couldnt always handle the volumes, but the panasonic caps they use sound nice..
Core Sound Cards- Eh, not bad. Flat sounding, not alot of depth
Church audio CA-11 & 14's - a little too big for my taste with stealthing,  they sounded good. I didnt use them too much because I liked the tone, depth and quality of my.....
Sonic Studios DSM-6S- A little bassy, but I use a rolloff, and "master" the show after recording.. The only downfall of ANY omni in my owpinion is in large halls, not up front, they sound kinda cavernous.. but if youtape in small to midsize clubs, stack tape, the sonics are GREAT ..

I would like to try the microphone madness sennheiser mics, and the Nevaton are great from the stuff I've heard.
Your mileage may vary,
Hope this helps a little
MarkE

[groovon]

Hi Mark. Thanks for your input. Which of the MM Sennh's do you like the look of? I've been trying to call the company all morning; left my number but they don't call me back. They have a 30-day return, anyway, so I'm almost ready to give it a fling...
The Russian mics I'm a bit leery of, though they may sound good - I'd want, for that sort of money, a better potential resale value - like the DPAs.
cheers!
Dave

[Belexes]

I had the MM-HLSC-1's and liked them. However, some on here complained they could not take high SPL's.  I never seem to have that issue, but I was never taping anything that was bone crushing loud at the time.

Another issue with them is said to be iffy bass response, but then opt for the omni's rather than the card's. 

I like the detail of the senn capsules.

[groovon]

Yeah, thanks for the feedback. Guess I'll find out how they sound soon enough, 'cause I ordered a pair today. Cardiods same as you had, 30 day return.
I'm not really worried about them clipping, mostly I'm just recording at jazz clubs and blues jams. Bass response? Well, I guess I'll have to see.
Wondering if they'll run OK off the Sony M-10s' mic power...

PS - thanks very much to all you guys who offered suggestions... which I'm still open to, BTW. There's always more mics to get, as you well know(!)

cheers
Dave

[listener2]

Also, what is the optimal DC input bias voltage for the 4060 cap? In the specs I see only the raw DC input the various DPA adaptors will accept (i.e. 5V to 50V).

Thanks!
Dave

The DPA 4060 mics optimal voltage seems to be right at about 9 volts because the schematic of their XLR phantom power adapter has something like a 8.9v (or something like that, maybe 8.2v or 8.7v) zener diode that essentially clamps and limits the voltage going to the DPA mics at that voltage and no more.  I've built my own battery box using a 9volt battery.  I bought the female microdot jacks from DPA themselves as no one else sells them anywhere that I could find.  The mics work great with the battery box into my Sony M10, Sony D50, Roland R-05 and Edirol R-09 mic inputs.  I would say that the DPA 4060 mics work just fine with 5v to 9v battery power.

[Scooter123]

I was considering getting a pair of 4060s or 4061s. It seems like a no-brainer, and I'll get a pair someday, but it's a big investment right now and there are plenty of times when omnis don't seem the right choice (small clubs, etc).

Actually, I use the DPA Omnis for small clubs exclusively.  Very bright and open sound for use close in.   I got mine at Sound Professionals and had Chris Church make me a battery box. 

[groovon]

Also, what is the optimal DC input bias voltage for the 4060 cap? In the specs I see only the raw DC input the various DPA adaptors will accept (i.e. 5V to 50V).

Thanks!
Dave

The DPA 4060 mics optimal voltage seems to be right at about 9 volts because the schematic of their XLR phantom power adapter has something like a 8.9v (or something like that, maybe 8.2v or 8.7v) zener diode that essentially clamps and limits the voltage going to the DPA mics at that voltage and no more.  I've built my own battery box using a 9volt battery.  I bought the female microdot jacks from DPA themselves as no one else sells them anywhere that I could find.  The mics work great with the battery box into my Sony M10, Sony D50, Roland R-05 and Edirol R-09 mic inputs.  I would say that the DPA 4060 mics work just fine with 5v to 9v battery power.

THANK YOU for the reply! Very nice info to have. Could you link me to the DPA schematics you mentioned? I figured that their XLR converter was a voltage divider with a regulating zener. I'd still like to see it though, for the pinouts.
I heard that about those connectors, only available as DPA parts. Bummer at $50 each! But better than hacking the original cables, I guess. I'm gonna try and get some 4060s soon!

Cheers
Dave

[MarkE]

Hi Mark. Thanks for your input. Which of the MM Sennh's do you like the look of? I've been trying to call the company all morning; left my number but they don't call me back. They have a 30-day return, anyway, so I'm almost ready to give it a fling...
The Russian mics I'm a bit leery of, though they may sound good - I'd want, for that sort of money, a better potential resale value - like the DPAs.
cheers!
Dave

The  MM-HLSC-1 that Belexes was speaking of.. They sound nice.

[groovon]

[/quote]

The  MM-HLSC-1 that Belexes was speaking of.. They sound nice.
[/quote]

MM catalogs two similar-looking cardioids, HLSC-1 and HLSC-2. I think the only difference is the -2 is supplied with clips? I hope so, I ordered a pair of the -1s.
I'm extremely curious how good they'll sound. I haven't bought electret mics since I was very young and extremely poor, and couldn't afford 'real' mics, and I remember always being disappointed with the extreme lack of bass response from cheap Japanese electret mics. Many years later when I could finally afford AKG C460s, 414s etc, I felt like I'd reached mic Nirvana.
Anyway, I'll see pretty soon if I feel I need to go the full monty, to DPAs etc... knowing me, i'd say there's a good chance I will not be happy until I reach DPA land... 

[groovon]

I was considering getting a pair of 4060s or 4061s. It seems like a no-brainer, and I'll get a pair someday, but it's a big investment right now and there are plenty of times when omnis don't seem the right choice (small clubs, etc).

Actually, I use the DPA Omnis for small clubs exclusively.  Very bright and open sound for use close in.   I got mine at Sound Professionals and had Chris Church make me a battery box.

I'm definitely getting a pair of 4060s ASAP (one reason I didn't go for the MM omnis). Just from various mp3 clips, I can't believe the transparency and openness I've heard from recordings made w/ 4060s. I'm hooked, and it's gonna cost me(!) - I better get to work!

(PS - Sound Professionals doesn't seem to list DPA anymore.)

cheers!

[adrianf74]

MM catalogs two similar-looking cardioids, HLSC-1 and HLSC-2. I think the only difference is the -2 is supplied with clips? I hope so, I ordered a pair of the -1s.
I'm extremely curious how good they'll sound. I haven't bought electret mics since I was very young and extremely poor, and couldn't afford 'real' mics, and I remember always being disappointed with the extreme lack of bass response from cheap Japanese electret mics. Many years later when I could finally afford AKG C460s, 414s etc, I felt like I'd reached mic Nirvana.
Anyway, I'll see pretty soon if I feel I need to go the full monty, to DPAs etc... knowing me, i'd say there's a good chance I will not be happy until I reach DPA land... 

I think you've answered your own question.  I think there's a general consensus that DPA 406x's are the way to go for the "best" mics under $1k.  If money is no object, then these might be your best bet.  I think what I (and others) were trying to state is that there are good and bad recordings made with ALL mics.  Whether the extra $500-$800 is worth the DPA's is subject to personal taste.  (And like I've said before, mics are like underwear... some prefer boxers, others prefer briefs).  I'd kill to buy a pair of DPA's, however, the extra money - to me anyhow - is better spent on other expense. 

Enjoy your DPA's when you get 'em.

[groovon]

Thanks Adrian.

Just found:

Good thread on the MM/Sennh. cardioids here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=126169.msg1684749#msg1684749


Some great concert tapes made using MM HLSCs, and some using 4060s here: http://www.dutchtaper.com/gear.php

Listening to MMs vs 4060s in these (in some cases same venue, same band), the 4060s can seem almost too bright and bass-hyped, and in direct comparison, the MM HLSCs maybe just a little lacklustre. Not a final judgement by any means....

The HLSCs here come across as quite detailed and very well balanced: http://www.archive.org/details/kd32006-07-27.flac

(I hope my etiquette is OK in posting these links, I'm a little new to this. Admirable work from these recordists, so many thanks.)

Dave

[adrianf74]

(Listening to MMs here, vs 4060s (in some cases same venue, same band), the 4060s can seem almost too bright, whereas in comparison the MM HLSCs seem a bit lacklustre(?) Not a final judgement by any means.)

You're most welcome.

I always say, record what you record, "fix it in post", and share it. 

If I played you some of the shows I've recorded over the years (including using the AT-933/C), you'd be shocked hearing the "raw" recording.  Over 90% of the time, I've had to do some minor tweaking in post.  Either rolling off a little bass, bumping the low end a little bit or tweaking the mids-to-highs.  Sometimes I've had to perform surgery due to technical issues or a bad mix in the venue.  Most people will say a little post work goes a long way; others will say NOT to touch your recording.  What I do is I FLAC the RAW file after I'm done tweaking and keep both my "final" version and the original in case I ever want to "go back."  Requires a little more disk room but it's well worth it.

On a side note, I used the CMC-8's (AT-933/C) to a Sharp MiniDisc for Kraftwerk back in '03 and another taper used 4061's to his DAT.  My recording had better overall clarity and he was standing about four rows away from me.   So, the more expensive mic doesn't always equate to the "better mic" at the end of the day.  Let your ears be the judge and get what's best for your needs.   

[groovon]

(Listening to MMs here, vs 4060s (in some cases same venue, same band), the 4060s can seem almost too bright, whereas in comparison the MM HLSCs seem a bit lacklustre(?) Not a final judgement by any means.)

You're most welcome.

I always say, record what you record, "fix it in post", and share it. 

If I played you some of the shows I've recorded over the years (including using the AT-933/C), you'd be shocked hearing the "raw" recording.  Over 90% of the time, I've had to do some minor tweaking in post.  Either rolling off a little bass, bumping the low end a little bit or tweaking the mids-to-highs.  Sometimes I've had to perform surgery due to technical issues or a bad mix in the venue.  Most people will say a little post work goes a long way; others will say NOT to touch your recording.  What I do is I FLAC the RAW file after I'm done tweaking and keep both my "final" version and the original in case I ever want to "go back."  Requires a little more disk room but it's well worth it.

On a side note, I used the CMC-8's (AT-933/C) to a Sharp MiniDisc for Kraftwerk back in '03 and another taper used 4061's to his DAT.  My recording had better overall clarity and he was standing about four rows away from me.   So, the more expensive mic doesn't always equate to the "better mic" at the end of the day.  Let your ears be the judge and get what's best for your needs.   

Hi Adrian - sorry, I think maybe that came out the wrong way. I added to that post, as I wanted to thank you guys for the great recordings we use as comps sometimes, and the work of posting them - it's always appreciated.

cheers!
Dave

[Gutbucket]

..Over 90% of the time, I've had to do some minor tweaking in post.  Either rolling off a little bass, bumping the low end a little bit or tweaking the mids-to-highs.  Sometimes I've had to perform surgery due to technical issues or a bad mix in the venue.  Most people will say a little post work goes a long way; others will say NOT to touch your recording.  What I do is I FLAC the RAW file after I'm done tweaking and keep both my "final" version and the original in case I ever want to "go back."  Requires a little more disk room but it's well worth it.

Same. 

I'll add that an important (primary) difference for me between various mics is how easily I can correct the sound of the recording afterward, as I find recordings made with some mics much easier to fix than others.  That's a big deal since we're rarely able to monitor well enough to tweak things perfectly in the field.  Like Adrian, I usually make some sort of eq correction on almost all of them.  A good number of those recordings I personally consider totally unacceptable without eq correction, yet many of those shine up nicely with a some critical eq work. 

I find that those corrections are relatively easy to make on recordings I've made with 4060s, even if I need to use somewhat radical EQ settings.  It does take time, patient listening, and acurate monitoring to get it right in a way that translates to other systems.  But those mics seem to have the qualities needed to support that when it's necessary.  With some mics, I just get frustrated trying to eq the recording to something I find acceptable.  I'm not sure if its the dynamic range, resonances in response, or the general transparency of a particular mic that gives recordings made with it more or less of an ability to 'take eq', but it's a big factor for me in how useable that mic will be.  It's honestly more important than the raw sound itself, although both go hand-in-hand IMO. 

In light of that, a useful techinque for me in choosing mics is to take music samples recorded with the various mics (both good and bad sounding) and try and work them into something better sounding.  It takes a good bit of trial and error time and effort, but helps me to determine if I can get the qualities I'm looking for out of the recordings.  Doing that is more useful to me than just listening to most raw recordings because of all the variables in the way we record.