Topic: Solid Multitrack Recorder for SBD (stealthing unnecessary)

[RoganSarine]

This doesn't really seem to fit in "Recording Gear" since it's not reference to "Portable (in the usual battery sense)" or a "Studio" recorder...

But, as most people here recommend the Sony M10 for microphone inputs, I was wondering what they would recommend to pull a multitrack sound board feed (and any associate cables needed).

I currently use a Zoom H4N to pull a general sound board mix and a vocal only feed at the same time to fill in some missing dynamics from the CA14 (to enhance some clarity). However, I've been thinking I might spend some time to invest in a multitrack recorder, and was hoping someone had some input.

I've been looking at some TASCAM's, but without any experience pulling multitracks, I honestly have no idea what's the most solid, yet affordable, one. This would be used primarily when we are sanctioned by the band to be there, so we wouldn't need to stealth it.

[Walstib62]

A lot of questions:
How portable does it need to be?
Will you be using it mostly in 1 venue?
Mic placement options?
computer interface or true multitrack recorder unit?

[RoganSarine]

A lot of questions:
How portable does it need to be?
Will you be using it mostly in 1 venue?
Mic placement options?
computer interface or true multitrack recorder unit?

Ha ha, you're totally right. I should have clarified portability.

How portable does it need to be?
The more portable, the better. I would be carrying it from the car to the venue. The venues will change, so our gear won't be left in a single place. I currently use a huge duffel gym bag to carry all our gear, mic stands, etc. Something that's about the size of a 13"-15" laptop would be the ideal maximum size.

Mic placement options?
In terms of? I'd be running omnis and cards into our Sony PCM-10's. The multitrack recorders main purpose is to pull each instrument separately directly from the soundboard. The sound technicians in our city are kinda shit (literally, they have no sound qualifications - they're just the guy who doesn't want bar duty), so sometimes I need a way to boost a certain instrument (usually vocals) to make it more clear - this is how I want to use the multitrack.

computer interface or true multitrack recorder unit?
True multitrack in all likely hood, but if it's cheaper for a computer interface, I could always use my laptop with ease.

I'll sacrifice price to size in many regards, and I prefer tactile response over digital. However, my laptop is a tablet PC, so it's fairly tactile anyway.

I'm trying to gauge how financially feasible this would be.

[ScoobieKW]

How many tracks?

Premixed L/R = 2
Vocals = 3 or 4

Will you feel  limited by an 8 track?

[RoganSarine]

How many tracks?

Premixed L/R = 2
Vocals = 3 or 4

Will you feel  limited by an 8 track?

I don't think I'd feel limited by an 8 track a lot of the instruments will be individually balanced already on the main board (I'm looking at you drums), and I definitely wouldn't ever need them.

I'd be looking at as you said, probably 3 vocal tracks (1 main, 2 backups) and 2-3 instrumental tracks (which is usually just a L/R general instrumental mix because, well, the room mics are generally sweet for picking these up).

[TNJazz]

Tascam HS-P82

[yousef]

If I could piggyback onto this discussion - can I ask what sort of spec of laptop would one want to be recording up to 16 tracks of 48kHz/24bit? (Probably via Presonus firewire interfaces.)

I ask because I quite fancy picking up second hand Panasonic Toughbook for recording duties but I'm not sure if they're up to the task. Mixing/processing would be done elsewhere - this would just be a matter of getting the data safely onto disc.

Sorry for possible threadjack - hopefully it's relevant to the OP's questions.

[kcmule]

Alesis HD24

[mepaca]

Agreed. The hd24 or upgraded hd24xr is bullet proof and sounds great. It is the backup for all my multitrack recordings and has saved my ass more
than once. To go through all the effort to make a multitrack live recording and then not get paid because of a computer glitch is unthinkable.

[John Willett]

This doesn't really seem to fit in "Recording Gear" since it's not reference to "Portable (in the usual battery sense)" or a "Studio" recorder...

But, as most people here recommend the Sony M10 for microphone inputs, I was wondering what they would recommend to pull a multitrack sound board feed (and any associate cables needed).

There is only one choice for this - the JoeCo Black Box Recorder.

It's designed to do exactly what you described and is an excellent machine.

Sound On Sound review is HERE.

[kcmule]

^^ I'd love to have one of those but they cost a small fortune.

[Patrick]

...and with the Joe Co boxes, you'll need to spend a significant amount of money on multipin breakout cables for all of your I/O.  For quick, easy, and affordable multitracking I would look at something else.  Joe Co Boxes are great though if you can afford it.   

[SmokinJoe]

I think it helps to understand your objective.  In my mind if you are capturing what the sound guy puts out, that's "taping."  If you are recording all the raw feeds and remixing them that's "multitracking".  The significant difference isn't just in the recorder, it's what you do with it in post.  If you are friends with a band with 2 guys with acoustic guitars, then 2 vocal mics + 2 guitars + 2 room mics really is a complete multitrack in 6 channels.  If you grab all the individual feeds for a full rock band you are talking 16-24 tracks.

I run 4 channels (2 SBD + 2 AUD) 80% of the time, and R4/R44, etc is perfect for that.  I have an HD24 setup which I use 10% of the time, and probably the other 10% is just 2 track AUD.

To me, 2 SBD + 2 AUD makes a lot of sense.  If I'm getting a mono SBD feed, sometimes I take the spare channel and grab the bass guitar DI.  I have friends with 680's who will run 2 AUD + 2 SBD, and then grab a couple of individual channels (like lead singer's vocal and kick) to fill in the weak channels.  If this kind of thing "a couple of extra channels" appeals to you, then something like a 680 is great.  Speaking only for myself... I'm happy with 4 track, or I want all the stage mics + AUD, which is where I use the HD24.

Does that make sense?

[John Willett]

For a multi-track recorder that can record direct from the send and returns of a mixing console onto a hard drive that can then be plugged directly into your DAW, the JoeCo Black Box is actually pretty inexpensive.

I know several amateur recordists that have this as it's high quality and affordable.

It's what I would use in the same circumstances.

[RoganSarine]

For a multi-track recorder that can record direct from the send and returns of a mixing console onto a hard drive that can then be plugged directly into your DAW, the JoeCo Black Box is actually pretty inexpensive.

I know several amateur recordists that have this as it's high quality and affordable.

It's what I would use in the same circumstances.

Hey John,

Sorry for the 3 month delay in thank you for the recommendation.  I've had a very stressful and emotional life these last couple months. Shortly after posting that message I was let go from my job, so I was kind of out of it for awhile. Anyway, with things finally starting to look up I'm back in the market for a multitrack recorder.

Looking at the JoeCo recorder, the only thing that leaves me a little apprehensive is since it's a rack unit, i'd primarily be carrying the thing between venues. I don't know how feasible or practical this would be (I'm not an expert in portable rack rigs), so I'm gonna go see if I can find a physical unit to look at. It's a little weird to try and go to a venue to try and get the sound tech's permission to plug in a unit inbetween the board and the instruments, but it's something I'd like to try - it's a fun little hobby.

[MULETAPER]

Hey, not for nothing the DR680 is an ALL in one unit... I pulled my first Big band recording with it this week Digital-SBD-XLR>+ 2 Mics. sync the tracks and you have 2 recordings that are timed perfectly for a matrix... Im loving it!! this is by far the cleanest recorder ive owned inculding my Oade ACM-661.

[raymonda]

Here is a really inexpensive option. Buy a broken Presonus FP10 off of ebay for less than $100. Send it off to Presonus and they will completeley rebuild it for another $100.00. It comes with CUBASE LE, which will give you 8 channels of up to 24/96 and plug it into your lap top. These units work well. I run 3 of them for 24 channels. Although I use AC, I've heard that these can be used with DC as well.

So for no more than $250 you have a 8 channel unit and software system. Buy a second and then third unit if you desire for 16-24 channels.

Spend the rest of your money on tickets, gas and new mics.

[cybergaloot]

...and with the Joe Co boxes, you'll need to spend a significant amount of money on multipin breakout cables for all of your I/O. 

Depends on which JoeCo box you get. If you get the BBR1U with Unbalanced analogue i/o it comes with the wiring looms. Its probably the most universal box they make as far as being able to plug into the most boards. Since its only 1u you don't need much of a rack, just enough to hold the recorder, an external hard drive and maybe to stash the cables when toting it around. Look for used ones, there are plenty out there. I had hoped to have one of there by the end of the year but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

The BBR1B with Balanced analogue i/o would be nicer but you would have to buy all the cables. The lightpipe, MADI and Dante models would limit you on what you could plug into.

[kcmule]

This is looking pretty sexy.

http://tascam.com/product/x-48mkii/

[cybergaloot]

This is looking pretty sexy.

http://tascam.com/product/x-48mkii/

$5,000 worth of sexy! Not counting an analog card if you want to hook up that way.

I looked at this online yesterday: http://line6.com/stagescape-m20d/
$2,500 and it is a 16 channel recorder (plus mains). 24bit to USB drive, SD card or direct to laptop.
I'd say its the coming thing. Not necessarily this unit but the idea.

[kcmule]

B&H had it listed, in the catalog, for about $4200.  However, some of the guys
around here are paying that for an 8 channel field recorder from Tascam.  Or
that much for one of the SD boxes. For that kind of loot, I'll take the extra 40
channels!

That stagescape looks interesting.

[cybergaloot]

I like that it can be controlled remotely by an iPad. I'm just starting to look into the remote control aspect for multichannel. 

[RoganSarine]

...and with the Joe Co boxes, you'll need to spend a significant amount of money on multipin breakout cables for all of your I/O. 

Depends on which JoeCo box you get. If you get the BBR1U with Unbalanced analogue i/o it comes with the wiring looms. Its probably the most universal box they make as far as being able to plug into the most boards. Since its only 1u you don't need much of a rack, just enough to hold the recorder, an external hard drive and maybe to stash the cables when toting it around. Look for used ones, there are plenty out there. I had hoped to have one of there by the end of the year but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

The BBR1B with Balanced analogue i/o would be nicer but you would have to buy all the cables. The lightpipe, MADI and Dante models would limit you on what you could plug into.

Technically though, would I even need a rack? I'd literally be taking this thing inbetween venues and tapping into the soundboard (with musician permission of course). I don't see any reason why this thing needs to be in a rack casing.

As for the Balanced cables, while nicer for AC interference, I don't really see the point since I'd be running less than 5 foot lines to the board. Usually balanced cables are only needed for long cable runs.

In the end, I just want something that can record all the channels of a band, so I can take the thing home and mix it with the room mics in my DAW (because I really hate SBD-only live pulls... even when post-processed on a multitrack, it just always sounds off to me without room mics to fill in the crowd). With this all being said, where could I look for used JoeCo's, and would that still be the best option? I do REALLY like the concept of literally "record and walk away" in such a small unit. Since, as I said, I'll not be doing any live mixing).

Question though: Does the JoeCo tap in before it runs through the soundboard's mixer/preamps? The only reason I ask is because incase the sound tech lowers the guitars to an almost inaudible level via the fader in a small venue. Would I need to also run 2-3 preamps such as PreSonus DigiMax D8? This would run me about another $800-1200. It's a small price to pay though, considering I'd also be granted a way more professional (and fully hardware controlled) podcasting interface. However, if I do need preamps, it does make the system a little bulky.

This is my main concern now. Something that's portable and very universal in terms of being able to set it up at different venues. I don't own the venues, so I'm sure they wouldn't let me switch out their soundboard I just need a way to tap into their board and to be able to gaurantee an pretty even dB across all channels (to give me room for mixing later)

As for the remote control, JoeCo is releasing an app for the Black Box for remote monitoring and control -> http://www.joeco.co.uk/main/news.html#blackboxapp . Definitely sounds promising... Im just worried about if I'd need preamps to counter-act a sound technician in smaller venues, since they tend to almost turn off the guitars. Granted, the room mics would bring back most of the instrumental dynamics that wern't mic'd in smaller venues (such as cymbals).

[cybergaloot]

Its up to you but a rack would keep it safer and could be a way to store related items if you get it big enough. I have a larger rack I take to some situations that is mainly for storage. It has a power conditioner, a drawer and a shelf. I keep some items in it that I only use in those situations like a long power cord and long mic cables and board cables. It gives me a work surface and makes it easy to pack up and store. I mainly use this at festivals I work at, not for club shows.

I agree about the balanced vs unbalanced choice. The balanced version costs a couple hundred dollars more and if that included cables I'd be interested but it doesn't, so add in a couple hundred dollars for cables as well.

Ideal is to tap into the direct outs but whether those are pre or post fader depends on the board and probably a board setting. At the club I record at most, I'm tied into an older Allen & Heath board that comes with direct outs set to post fader and to switch it you have to unplug everything, flip it over, remove a panel and switch each channel strip individually. What a pain! That's why I adapted a trs-trs snake to tap into the inserts instead. I got a snake with serviceable ends and bridged the tip to the ring at one end. That's not the best way to go but the most practical for me. If you run into this, Radio Shack makes adapters that will help but they are flimsy. Some boards (Mackies I know) you can just plug a trs connector in half way but not on the Allen & Heath board.

You shouldn't need preamps if the soundman sets the gain structure up correctly. Wouldn't hurt to have some available just in case but I doubt you'll need them for all channels.

My current rig at the club has two stage lip mics for ambiance and a mic (soon to be two mics) aimed at the audience to get the applause, etc. I have the audience mic run through a compressor using the side-chain for what they call "ducking." So far I am not entirely happy with the results. The applause still sounds like its coming from too far back. I still have to ride the fader on that a bit and sometimes it almost sounds like fake applause. I  have found that I only need to mix in a little of the stage lip mics to make the performance sound live. This will give you an idea of what I'm ending up with: http://soundcloud.com/cybergaloot/southernhospitality-ophelia It needs more bass and maybe kick, which is why I need to more from mixing to stereo on the fly to multi-track recording.

Thanks for the head's up on the JoeCo remote control. I had actually seen it announced that it was coming but forgot about it.

[raymonda]

I really think you need to look at the option I provided you. Not that the JoeCo is a bad one but rather one that is overkill and possibly over priced for your needs.

The $250 option I gave you with Presonus FP10 gets you everything you need at a fraction of the cost of the JoeCo. It also gives you independent preamps for each channel for when you don't run through a board and when you need to bring up or down a feed from the soundman. Being too demanding on the soundman is a sure way to limit your access.

If you believe you are only going to run 5' of cables, maybe you can get away with an unbalance version but I highly doubt it. There isn't one situation where you can take outs from board, setup comfortably so that you are not right on top of the soundman with anything less than 15 feet. 25' is better. Also, many boards only have balanced outs and sometimes it ain't pretty when you try to go from balanced to unbalanced, e.g. noise etc.

The JoeCo is a nice machine......and the 48 channels would be really sweet to have....for my purposes. But then again, I have all kinds of software and hardware for every other situation, both pre and post. For a person just getting their feet wet it is overkill when there are so many other options available which gives you more with less money. The JoeCo is a slave to the sound board.....much like the older HD24's it doesn't have adjustable gain....phantom power....etc. You are totally dependent on your gain source. So, if you have a great gig coming up and they are primarily acoustic you are out of luck with the JoeCo....unless you buy a soundboard or seperate preamp. Both would add to your cost.

Drop the $250 on the presonus.......if it meets your needs you have saved a bundle. If it doesn't, then sell it and buy the JoeCo. You won't have a problem selling the presonus and you don't have much money invested in it. If you go with the JoeCo you'll be investing much more money without much more to gain. You'll also lose more on the resale of the JoeCo than the $250 you have invested in the Presonus.

In either case you need to buy a hard plastic carrying case for either machine. It is the best way to protect your investment and the cost is minimal. Gator and SKB make excellent cases. Get a 2U because you will want to put either a patchbay or power strip in it.

BTW...I'm not a fan of the lights on the JoeCo. It looks like I'm walking down the fairway at a carnival. I hope they redesign these or provide an option to turn them off.

[RoganSarine]

I really think you need to look at the option I provided you. Not that the JoeCo is a bad one but rather one that is overkill and possibly over priced for your needs.

The $250 option I gave you with Presonus FP10 gets you everything you need at a fraction of the cost of the JoeCo. It also gives you independent preamps for each channel for when you don't run through a board and when you need to bring up or down a feed from the soundman. Being too demanding on the soundman is a sure way to limit your access.

If you believe you are only going to run 5' of cables, maybe you can get away with an unbalance version but I highly doubt it. There isn't one situation where you can take outs from board, setup comfortably so that you are not right on top of the soundman with anything less than 15 feet. 25' is better. Also, many boards only have balanced outs and sometimes it ain't pretty when you try to go from balanced to unbalanced, e.g. noise etc.

The JoeCo is a nice machine......and the 48 channels would be really sweet to have....for my purposes. But then again, I have all kinds of software and hardware for every other situation, both pre and post. For a person just getting their feet wet it is overkill when there are so many other options available which gives you more with less money. The JoeCo is a slave to the sound board.....much like the older HD24's it doesn't have adjustable gain....phantom power....etc. You are totally dependent on your gain source. So, if you have a great gig coming up and they are primarily acoustic you are out of luck with the JoeCo....unless you buy a soundboard or seperate preamp. Both would add to your cost.

Drop the $250 on the presonus.......if it meets your needs you have saved a bundle. If it doesn't, then sell it and buy the JoeCo. You won't have a problem selling the presonus and you don't have much money invested in it. If you go with the JoeCo you'll be investing much more money without much more to gain. You'll also lose more on the resale of the JoeCo than the $250 you have invested in the Presonus.

In either case you need to buy a hard plastic carrying case for either machine. It is the best way to protect your investment and the cost is minimal. Gator and SKB make excellent cases. Get a 2U because you will want to put either a patchbay or power strip in it.

BTW...I'm not a fan of the lights on the JoeCo. It looks like I'm walking down the fairway at a carnival. I hope they redesign these or provide an option to turn them off.

I looked at the PreSonus. My main issues with it are primarily the fact that from what I can see, it can't record to a HDD, so I'd need a laptop with a firewire interface (which adds more bulk to the mix). From what I see, they also run closer to $500 then $250 (I can't find any used ones near $250). Assuming the preamps are clean, I can always get one to use for my podcasts for a more clean gain-structure, so it's a decent investment. I just can't imagine an 8-channel setup being anywhere near enough channels, since most amplified shows use about 16 inputs if I'm not mistaken (once you get into medium-sized venues that run about 750-1250 people anyway). Sure, I can combine channels, but that still makes me at the mercy of the sound technician having a live mix that balances well for a recording.

Then again, I'm just interpreting my own opinions and may be wrong. Yeah, I will admit the JoeCo is a little pricey, but at the end of the day, I need something that will work and is reliable for a solid mix in post. Messing up after taking a show doesn't exactly look good on my track record.

For me, I don't usually work with acoustic gigs. But, if I did ever need an acoustic recording, I have in the past run my own studio acoustic sessions since I do have access to a Mackie.

The balanced version costs a couple hundred dollars more and if that included cables I'd be interested but it doesn't, so add in a couple hundred dollars for cables as well.

I ended up getting a couple emails last night with Joe (owner of JoeCo). He said that the balanced cables themselves will only run me about $30 (x3). He recommended these cables specifically: HOSA DTP-803. For an extra $400 to run a balanced setup, it's not as grand of a leap as I thought. Comes out to being $2900 after all is said and done for 24 channels.

[kirk97132]

I wonder why the choice of using inserts rather than directouts?  Plus in my experience you will run into more guys using the inserts for mixing than using the direct outs.  I guess you could use the same cable for an input from a direct out with those patch cables but then you are taking it to an unbalanced signal which can be lower volume and more open to issues. The HD24 will come in much lower and if you need 24/96 the HD24XR still would leave you well over a thousand dollars in your pocket.  YMMV

[cybergaloot]

The balanced version costs a couple hundred dollars more and if that included cables I'd be interested but it doesn't, so add in a couple hundred dollars for cables as well.

I ended up getting a couple emails last night with Joe (owner of JoeCo). He said that the balanced cables themselves will only run me about $30 (x3). He recommended these cables specifically: HOSA DTP-803. For an extra $400 to run a balanced setup, it's not as grand of a leap as I thought. Comes out to being $2900 after all is said and done for 24 channels.

I didn't realize you could use the Hosa cables but you will need three if you want to use all 24 channels. Some folks turn up their noses at Hosa cables but I have a bunch of them and they have worked flawlessly. I'm more picky about mic cables. Even there some folks get carried away.

[RoganSarine]

I wonder why the choice of using inserts rather than directouts?  Plus in my experience you will run into more guys using the inserts for mixing than using the direct outs.  I guess you could use the same cable for an input from a direct out with those patch cables but then you are taking it to an unbalanced signal which can be lower volume and more open to issues. The HD24 will come in much lower and if you need 24/96 the HD24XR still would leave you well over a thousand dollars in your pocket.  YMMV

From my understanding, the inserts are unbalanced and direct outs are balanced. The owner (Joe) who I was talking with said that the unbalanced JoeCo can connect to the direct outs in most cases no problem, but it's more reliable if you upgrade to the balanced JoeCo. If you use the balanced model, its my understanding to always use the direct outs.

As for the HD24XR, I can't see where anyone is geting the prices for less then $2000... I cant find any on sale anymore. I found a couple on ebay, but they arn't being sold by refurbishers anymore, so from what I can tell, they don't even check if all the channels still work. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong on this? The only thing that I'm a little weary on the HD24 is that, the mechanical IDE hard drives (which may be prone to high bass environments), and the fact it seems kinda big and bulky.

I'll probably try to get a JoeCo around mid-October... I just wish I could find one used - wouldn't mind knocking off a couple hundred on a unit.

[kirk97132]

I wonder why the choice of using inserts rather than directouts?  Plus in my experience you will run into more guys using the inserts for mixing than using the direct outs.  I guess you could use the same cable for an input from a direct out with those patch cables but then you are taking it to an unbalanced signal which can be lower volume and more open to issues. The HD24 will come in much lower and if you need 24/96 the HD24XR still would leave you well over a thousand dollars in your pocket.  YMMV

From my understanding, the inserts are unbalanced and direct outs are balanced. The owner (Joe) who I was talking with said that the unbalanced JoeCo can connect to the direct outs in most cases no problem, but it's more reliable if you upgrade to the balanced JoeCo. If you use the balanced model, its my understanding to always use the direct outs.

As for the HD24XR, I can't see where anyone is geting the prices for less then $2000... I cant find any on sale anymore. I found a couple on ebay, but they arn't being sold by refurbishers anymore, so from what I can tell, they don't even check if all the channels still work. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong on this? The only thing that I'm a little weary on the HD24 is that, the mechanical IDE hard drives (which may be prone to high bass environments), and the fact it seems kinda big and bulky.

I'll probably try to get a JoeCo around mid-October... I just wish I could find one used - wouldn't mind knocking off a couple hundred on a unit.

your right the HD 24's are no longer in production.  They XR's show up on ebay and I think you can get a deal around $1500 of you have time to shop.  The are bigger units.  The IDE drives can be found but you do need to use certain ones not all of them work with the HD-24.  So if you want NEW, and right now along with a slammer footprint, the Joeco is the way to go.  And yes you are right about balanced unbalanced.  You can use an unbalanced connector on a direct out too, I belive you loose a few db on the signal?  Not sure on that.

[RoganSarine]

I'll definitely thinka bout it... I think I'll take a JoeCo for a spin on a 30/60-day return policy and see how it fairs with our work flow. May as well abuse a return policy ;P