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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: kf on July 19, 2008, 02:35:53 PM
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We've got an old Fostex hard disk recorder that has served us well for remote recordings for radio. We've used it with a Shure WH30 headset mic and Roland pre-amp with good success. We're replacing the recorder and the preamp.
The people we record are typically pretty quiet so the preamp is necessary. It looks like we're going to purchase a Sound Devices MM-1 to use with whatever flash recorder we land on. Wanted to get your opinion on some things. Here's what we'd like to know:
1. Does the good pre amp lesson the need for good pres on the recorder?
2. What flash recorder has the best pres for the work we're doing? (lowest noise at highest gain)
3. If it were you, what would you combo of gear would you buy and why... given the type of recording we do?
Thanks
Kent
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The people we record are typically pretty quiet so the preamp is necessary. It looks like we're going to purchase a Sound Devices MM-1 to use with whatever flash recorder we land on. Wanted to get your opinion on some things. Here's what we'd like to know:
1. Does the good pre amp lesson the need for good pres on the recorder?
2. What flash recorder has the best pres for the work we're doing? (lowest noise at highest gain)
3. If it were you, what would you combo of gear would you buy and why... given the type of recording we do?
Thanks
Kent
1. I assume you are most worried about noise/hiss then yes absolutely. Better yet, if the flash-recorder has a good line-in option. I use a MixPre with a R09HR (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_LakeEacham.jpg) for quietude recording (http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57609) and it's superb (IMO). The MM-1 is (as you would know) a single channel version of the MixPre. BTW: the MM-1 only has XLR out so you will probably need an XLR to mini-jack adapter cable as all the flash-recorders I mention below don't have XLR input.
2. If you are using the MM-1 then this requirement is somewhat moot. In this case you will not need to raise the internal gain of the flash-recorder at all. You will set it to a fairly low level and let the MM-1 do all the work. Or better yet, you will be using the line-level input on the flash-recorder.
3. The down-side to using an MM-1 and Flash-Recorder is that it's a two box-solution and you will have a few extra cables and two sets of batteries to maintain/monitor. However if you get a good bag for it with the right pockets, then it need not be too messy.
I think you are on the right track however. That is you are not going to find a single-box solution (@ < $2000) with the quality/low-noise/gain of an MM-1 + line-in to a flash recorder.
As I have said, I use a Sound Devices MixPre. I would seriously consider getting a MixPre for interview work as two-mic interviews and stereo recording can be very useful in the field. A MixPre + R09HR cost ~$1000. BTW: if you can afford a SD702 (@ ~$1900) then I'd consider that too.
(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_LakeEacham.jpg)
One reason I have stayed with the MixPre + flash recorder is that I can break it down into stealth mode (just use the R09HR with internal mics or binaurals) for recording in public places or add the MixPre when I need quiet gain and better quality mics. The SD702 doesn't cut it for stealth :)
Assuming you are using the MM-1, some good flash-recorder options are...
Edirol R09HR
Marantz PMD620
Olympus LS-10
Sony PCM-D50
Tascam DR-1
BTW: This site has a nice comparison of features and inboard/outboard mics etc...
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples
and specs...
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/compare-portable-recorders.html
digifish
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Kent,
You don't give us a target budget, which can be very important.
As you state, you want advice geared "given the type of recording we do..." but you haven't described the actual use of the equipment. You mentioned you are using a headset mic...which makes me think this is all being done by your own reporter rather than interviewing subjects.
1. A pre-amplifier's output will be plugged into the LINE INput of the recorder. The recorder's pre-amps are bypassed. So, yes.
2. Best flash recorder pre-amps? Digifish has outlined some of them. You can spend more money!
3. If this is monaural recording, I would be tempted to consider just a good flash recorder like the PCM-D50 and a Sennheiser Shotgun Microphone like the ME66/K6 combo with all of the trimmings like a handgrip, shockmount and deadcat. If it's stereo, multi-channel recording, then a mixer/pre-amp into any of the aforementioned recorders.
Hope that helps!
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The person being interviewed wears the headset. Our voices are never recorded. The folks we record are from a minority culture and typically are quiet... and often look down rather than make eye contact. We need to be able to hear them and not background noise. However, it's not often that we can record in a totally controlled environment... so we use the Shure WH30 headset which has a good pickup pattern for what we do. It also keeps the mic in the same proximity to the mouth at all times. People forget they have it on and are not distracted by having to try and remember to look toward or speak into a mic.
Question #3 is regardless of budget... if you had your choice of equipment what would you get... how would you approach it. Sounds like the suggestion of SD702 is a good one. We could eliminate the preamp altogether. We're interested in being as mobile as possible.
Thanks
Kent
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The new Tascam DR-1 flash recorder has a 1/4-inch (7mm) phone jack input for mono recording. The larger jack is more durable and makes better electrical contact (hence less extraneous added noise) than the smaller 1/8-inch (3.5mm) mic input jack used in most consumer-grade gear.
The latest firmware for the DR-1 has a "lower-than-low" mic sensitivity mode that makes for very quiet recordings, useful for situations when you can place the mics close, or when the subject of the recording is very loud (a rock concert, a steam locomotive, etc.).
The DR-1 is a bargain, selling for $220 or less. For example, B&H Photo Video offers the DR-1 with 4GB flash memory card for $209 after a $15 mail-in-rebate.
If you need a portable unit that provides phantom power to microphones, then take a look at the Fostex FR-2LE or Marantz PMD660 with Oade "ambient" modification.
Flintstone
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KF,
The SD 702 does look pretty promising.
The Shure WH30 seems your perfect mic solution -- and it requires 11 - 50 volts of phantom power. The 702 has it. Most of the compact recorders do not.
You could pair any of the smaller recorders with Shure's FP-23 single channel pre-amp and get both a rugged, battery operated field unit and your phantom power plus excellent sensitivity and low noise.
I would prefer the solution in one box. ;-)
But there are plenty of options available to you. I'm sure others on the forum will have useful tips...
Good luck!
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Question #3 is regardless of budget... if you had your choice of equipment what would you get... how would you approach it. Sounds like the suggestion of SD702 is a good one. We could eliminate the preamp altogether. We're interested in being as mobile as possible.
Thanks
Kent
Hi Kent, given your extra information I would definitely recommend the SD702 for your application. It was made for this kind of work and has some of the worlds quietest preamps. The self-noise from the headset mic will overwhelm any preamp noise from the SD702 (MM-1 or MixPre for that matter). So -
Plusses:
1. Professional quality ruggedized design.
2. Small size, single-box solution
3. World-class 'quiet' preamps with high gain available.
4. High resale value if you change your mind (highly sort after in the 2nd hand market due to 1-3 above).
Minuses:
1. Uses Sony Video camera batteries, which means you can't just pop into the local shop and grab a pack of AA's. So you may want two battery packs for it if you are away from wall-power for any length of time.
2. Is about +$1000 more expensive than the MM-1 + Flash-recorder options.
3. May intimidate your minorities if they can see it (looks like a space-ship flight-deck when running?).
digifish
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Sorry to barge in here, but i wanted to ask digifish how he liked the new R09, as otherwise we use the same gear. I'm using the older R09.
to the original poster, I would second the mixpre/MP2 preamp. Very rugged and quiet. As for other recorders, maybe the new Sony or Olympus? Plus a mixpre.
OOps, just saw the 2nd part of the new R09 thread which answers the above question. Please ignore me. Thank you.
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I would love to hear the recordings you make and have made. So no one from your radio show is on the recording, how do you ask questions and do interviews?
I know you are already settled for the SoundDevices 702, which is perfect for you, but I have seen many reporters carrying around nothing more than sony minidisc recorders and your regular run of the mill electro voice 635A and getting great recordings. I suppose this is all how you record and your situation. I would consider something for a backup just in case the people are a little freaked out by the huge box. Plus, the edirol r-09hr is POCKET SIZE. That is perfect.
Just ideas here.
Let us know what you wind up getting and link us to the audio recordings!
-peace
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1. I assume you are most worried about noise/hiss then yes absolutely. Better yet, if the flash-recorder has a good line-in option. I use a MixPre with a R09HR (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_LakeEacham.jpg) for quietude recording (http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57609) and it's superb (IMO). The MM-1 is (as you would know) a single channel version of the MixPre. BTW: the MM-1 only has XLR out so you will probably need an XLR to mini-jack adapter cable as all the flash-recorders I mention below don't have XLR input.
digifish
Which mics are these? Your AT3031s?
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BTW: FYI B&H just posted this summary of headset-mics...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Head-WornMics.jsp
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I would love to hear the recordings you make and have made. So no one from your radio show is on the recording, how do you ask questions and do interviews?
I know you are already settled for the SoundDevices 702, which is perfect for you, but I have seen many reporters carrying around nothing more than sony minidisc recorders and your regular run of the mill electro voice 635A and getting great recordings. I suppose this is all how you record and your situation. I would consider something for a backup just in case the people are a little freaked out by the huge box. Plus, the edirol r-09hr is POCKET SIZE. That is perfect.
Just ideas here.
Let us know what you wind up getting and link us to the audio recordings!
-peace
Here ya go: http://www.withoutreservation.com/singlearchive.php?podcast_id=149&submit=Go
These are sit-down interviews and most people relax pretty quickly. They forget about the gear and focus on telling their stories. We take notes, ask questions, and then insert their answers back into the bigger story. It works great and everyone is happy with the results... though not everyone likes what they're saying.
So, let's say the SD702 is out of reach (it is right now)... what we purchase now can be used for backup later.
What would you guys do if you couldn't get a 702?
What Preamp and why?
Flash Recorder?
We will be using the Shure WH30 headset mic. It works great for this application.
Thanks
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So, let's say the SD702 is out of reach (it is right now)... what we purchase now can be used for backup later.
What would you guys do if you couldn't get a 702?
What Preamp and why?
Flash Recorder?
We will be using the Shure WH30 headset mic. It works great for this application.
Thanks
The MM-1 (since it is made for field work, has phantom that you need and is a world-class quiet preamp) + Edirol R09HR + One of these (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/272646.html).
TOTAL ~ $720 (I will suggest that this combo will be audibly indistinguishable from a SD702 @ $1900).
BTW: I have put up some more MixPre + R09HR recordings at Freesound...
http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57608
http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57668
http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57669
http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57613
digifish.
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Thanks for the info. On this particular recorder (R-09HR), how much of a liability is there using the stereo mini connection into the recorder? I'm used to XLR connections and like the solid connectivity of them. Does the mini connector fit tightly in the jack? How do you safeguard your connections while recording?
Got a couple more technical questions:
When using a line level out of the MM-1, will all the top flash recorders provide the same results? (I'm assuming the recorder pres are bypassed here)
Are there liabilities in using recorder pres along with the MM-1?
Thanks
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My journalist friends are all big fans of the Fostex FR2-LE (http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/pro_products/fr2le.shtml) and have been totally satisfied with teh noise level on the pre's. IMO (as a new user of the box), it's a good all-in-one solution that won't set you back what the SD702 will. Not as portable as the R-09 but if that's not so much of an issue I'd say it's worth investigating. There are also people here who can do mods to further upgrade the deck should you feel it's needed, but based upon the feedback from friends using it at the BBC and elsewhere, it's really not needed.
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My biggest concern is the quality of the pres... both in range and noise. Interviewing quiet people forces me to raise the pre level to where it introduces some hiss... even with our condenser headset mic (Shure WH30). If the person is really quiet, I have to crank the pre all the way up. I use some software to dehiss the recording as necessary, but I'd really like to start with good clean signal. That's the goal for our next rig. So, how does the Fostex or others stack up considering our needs? I'm curious. Are your journalist friends using the audio for broadcast?
Still wondering:
When using a line level out of the MM-1, will all the top flash recorders provide the same results? (I'm assuming the recorder pres are bypassed here)
Are there liabilities in using recorder pres along with the MM-1?
Thanks
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My biggest concern is the quality of the pres... both in range and noise. Interviewing quiet people forces me to raise the pre level to where it introduces some hiss... even with our condenser headset mic (Shure WH30). If the person is really quiet, I have to crank the pre all the way up. I use some software to dehiss the recording as necessary, but I'd really like to start with good clean signal. That's the goal for our next rig. So, how does the Fostex or others stack up considering our needs? I'm curious. Are your journalist friends using the audio for broadcast?
Still wondering:
When using a line level out of the MM-1, will all the top flash recorders provide the same results? (I'm assuming the recorder pres are bypassed here)
Are there liabilities in using recorder pres along with the MM-1?
Thanks
Yes, they're using the recordings for broadcast. I'm inclined to think you'll be ok but here is a website with detailed info on noise for all major field recorders (including sound samples). http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
I recall reading that the FR2-LE is only margainally noisier than the SD722 (at a fraction of the cost). It also has the advantage of trim pots which will help with the range I'd think. Also worth re-iterating that they can be modded by Busman here on this board (I have the Transparent mod unit he does) to further improve the sound, though I honestly don't think it'd be needed.
As to the pairing of recorder pres with the MM-1 I'm afraid I can't help you there, but I'm sure that someone more familiar with the MM1 could chime in.
Edit to add: There is a sample comparison of the FR2-LE and an Edirol R-44 recording dead air at max volume here: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106932.msg1432992.html#msg1432992 would give you some idea of the noise for the unit.
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Thanks for the info. On this particular recorder (R-09HR), how much of a liability is there using the stereo mini connection into the recorder? I'm used to XLR connections and like the solid connectivity of them. Does the mini connector fit tightly in the jack? How do you safeguard your connections while recording?
Got a couple more technical questions:
When using a line level out of the MM-1, will all the top flash recorders provide the same results? (I'm assuming the recorder pres are bypassed here)
Are there liabilities in using recorder pres along with the MM-1?
Thanks
These style connectors are used as headphone jacks etc on 100,000,000's of consumer devices, they will only come out if you give them a severe tug. Edirol seems to have put special attention into the durability of the R09HR mini-connectors (see here (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm)).
The only real liability is the durability of a 3/8" mini-jack (and connector) vs an XLR. It's going to be a slightly fiddly solution, but there will be no audible difference between that and an XLR (IMO), since there will only be 12" of cable connecting the pre to the recorder.
It seems to me that once you get a suitable bag and connector cable you should not be in any danger of the recorder disconnecting from the preamp during a session. I assume you will be seated and recording your talent in a fixed (and prepared) location.
If you go line-in then yes, you have bypassed the mic-preamps.
I have been running about in the field with an R09+MixPre for a bout 18 months now, in less than ideal situations with no problems. When on the move I strap the recorder to the top of the MixPre (rubber bands as I can't bring myself to stick velcro to my nice pretty hardware) and hold them in one hand OR put it all in a bag, depending on the situation.
(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/TapersSection_R09HRMixPre.jpg)
BTW: Sony use a Mini-Jack with their adapter for the D50, so they are not the end of the world :)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/drewloo/xlr1_z.jpg)
While mini-jacks are not the preferred solution for a robust ruggedized field-recording rig, you are on a budget and want the quietest mic-pre you can afford. The MM-1 + flash-recorder solution will give you one of the quietest mic-pres money can buy (at any price). It's a tough decision, but one I gladly make. The trade-off is durability & convenience. But all that is required is some preparation, careful selection of cables (get a right-angled mini-jack connector on the R09HR end), and the right bag.
I read with interest the Fostex solution, this sounds like a good idea given your concerns about mini-jacks. BTW: The S/N on your mic is not all that great given your worries about mic-pres.
digifish
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1. I assume you are most worried about noise/hiss then yes absolutely. Better yet, if the flash-recorder has a good line-in option. I use a MixPre with a R09HR (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_LakeEacham.jpg) for quietude recording (http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=57609) and it's superb (IMO). The MM-1 is (as you would know) a single channel version of the MixPre. BTW: the MM-1 only has XLR out so you will probably need an XLR to mini-jack adapter cable as all the flash-recorders I mention below don't have XLR input.
digifish
Which mics are these? Your AT3031s?
I was using baffled 3032's. I prefer baffled omnis to cards for ambience recording. As you can see any old baffle will do (http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/Freesound_LakeEacham.jpg) :)
digifish
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I understand what you're saying about the mic. I want the mic to be the link in the chain. Am I thinking straight on that? BTW, do you have any suggestions on a better headset mic? We can't live without a headset mic in our application, but if we can find a better one - with better s/n, that would be great.
Thanks!