Taperssection.com

Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: twalker17 on June 30, 2009, 01:56:50 AM

Title: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: twalker17 on June 30, 2009, 01:56:50 AM
I am trying to find a way to record audio for a concert in 5.1 or surround in general. Anyone know of a simple way to do that?
I have mics cables etc, looking for a recording device that will accept 5.1 I can pre mix the mics in stereo front then stereo back . and send them as 4 channels.... is there a dvd recorder that will allow for more than stereo inputs?
Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: boojum on June 30, 2009, 02:07:16 AM
The simplest, but not the cheapest, that I know of is the Schoeps DMS, Double Mid-Side.  It requires two Schoeps Mk4's and an Mk8.  The software to decode the package into 5.1 is free.  It would also work with other cards/omnis and a figure eight mic.  I do not know if it would work as well as the Schoeps software is optimized for their mics, Mk4 and Mk8, I believe.
Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: notlance on June 30, 2009, 09:57:40 AM
Yes, Double MS is probably the simplest way to get 5 channels.  All you need is three mics (two cards and a figure eight) and three channels.  The mics don't have to be Schoeps, nor do you have to use the Schoeps plug-in.  The cool thing about DMS is you can record only three channels and derive the 5 channels in post; no need to mix the 5 channels live.  DMS also uses only one mic stand, so it's as low profile as a stereo rig.

You can do DMS with four cards set 90 degrees apart, but then you'll have to record 4 channels or mix the L & R mics before recording to three channels.  I use a couple of Sennheiser MKH800 Twins set 90 degrees apart to do DMS, which is in effect four cards at 90 degrees, and I just record all four channels.  The Sennheisers work well in this situation, but they are not the low-cost solution.  What you have with the four cards at 90 degrees is Ambisonics without the Z (height) component.

I've recorded DMS not to derive 5 channels, but to be able to select any M mic pattern in post by combining the F and B mics.  Of course I could get a 5 channel mix from my DMS recordings at any time if I wanted to, and that's kinda cool.
Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: J.T.L on June 30, 2009, 01:26:33 PM
Check my sig...1 mic, 1 cable, 1 deck and I can get mono, stereo, quad, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 and 8.

http://www.soundfield.com/products/sps200.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonics

stereo samples on archive...

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=sps200%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

eta: just saw topic subject and says cheap...what is your thoughts on cheap?
Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: dgillyerek on June 30, 2009, 02:11:49 PM
what software products do people use to mix into 5.1 for burning to dvd / cd?
Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: page on June 30, 2009, 02:21:01 PM
Quote from: J.T.L on June 30, 2009, 01:26:33 PM
eta: just saw topic subject and says cheap...what is your thoughts on cheap?

The soundfield is the *easist* way that I know of. You don't have to dick around with setup very much. Another way to accomplish the same result is an omni and 2 8s. Either way (Cards or omnis), you could get a stereo mic (Peluso, Busman, or LSD2), then run a single cap mic above it. So maybe $700-1200 would be the bottom end of the mic cost spectrum if you were starting from scratch IMHO.

Quote from: dgillyerek on June 30, 2009, 02:11:49 PM
what software products do people use to mix into 5.1 for burning to dvd / cd?


Audacity will do the mix (just have a pen and paper handy for notes on which track is which before exporting). I gave up my DMS project at burning.  :P


edit:

One other way would be to follow the B&K/DPA school of thought and buy 5 cardioids and run them in a spaced star-fish style array. They have a picture of the setup on their site, it would be cheaper to buy cheaper cards and fashion the 5.1 mount, but I think you'll still run into the $800-1200 range starting from scratch (including the bar creation).
Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: WiFiJeff on June 30, 2009, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: page on June 30, 2009, 02:21:01 PM

Another way to accomplish the same result is an omni and 2 8s.

Which you get in a Josephson C700(S), but of course then "cheap" is pretty much out the window. 

Jeff
Title: let me rephrase ....Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: twalker17 on June 30, 2009, 11:14:45 PM
I guess I should have clarified.....

I have the ability to mic the venue in a way to get the following:
front mix would be a mono board feed,
2 - l/r lav mics for Crowd FX
and 2 l/r rear lav mics for more crowd FX.
make sense?

thus I wanted to simply use a small mackie ype board with direct unbalanced outs that could go into a DVD recorder that would let me get everything neatly onto a DVD.
then I can try and play with it / edit it in post.....

I wanted this as down and dirty as possible. also trying to keep it simple.
so my real question is now that I have all of the sources - video and 5 channels of audio....
is there a dvd recorder that will allow 4 or 5 channel ins or what could I use as a portable or software recorder to get what I am trying to achieve....

and by cheap I was thinking under $1000. since i already have everything down to the 'recorder' ....

thanks




Title: Re: cheap way to record 5.1 ? dvd with 5.1?
Post by: page on July 01, 2009, 11:28:36 PM
Quote from: WiFiJeff on June 30, 2009, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: page on June 30, 2009, 02:21:01 PM

Another way to accomplish the same result is an omni and 2 8s.

Which you get in a Josephson C700(S), but of course then "cheap" is pretty much out the window. 

Jeff

Bingo, thats where I got the idea and the related math from when I tried.  ;D

Quote from: twalker17 on June 30, 2009, 11:14:45 PM
so my real question is now that I have all of the sources - video and 5 channels of audio....
is there a dvd recorder that will allow 4 or 5 channel ins or what could I use as a portable or software recorder to get what I am trying to achieve....

and by cheap I was thinking under $1000. since i already have everything down to the 'recorder' ....

I recommend you do all that in post, I can't think of a DVD recorder that will accomplish that without feeding a digital signal first so now your lugging around a multi-channel AD as well.

I don't think there is a "easy/dirty" way of doing 5.1 short of the DPA method I mentioned above which doesn't require any mixing of the audio, but will still require the PCM > AC3 (I think it's AC3) encoding.