Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Phil Zone on October 27, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
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hi all,
so i just bough a pair of akg 460s but dont own any capsules. at the moment it doesnt look like im going to find any used ones, though it would be ideal. so i dont have the money to get both 61s and 63s, so what should i get first? ive always been a card kind of person, but i will be running 4 tracks and have boths cards and hypers for my significant other.
what would you get? ALL opinions welcome!
thank you
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I've run both the CK61's and CK63's on my own and with a friend (who owns them as well) and if you're planning to run open (assuming you are with the bodies), I'd lean towards picking up the hypercards. I own both and went the CK61 route for hat mounting, however, I quickly learned that the CK63's are a better choice when running open as I was experiencing sound "drop off" outdoors at some shows. Many people around here like the CK63's over the CK61's with the general thought that they "sound better" and really shine at a distance (assuming you're running near the board). Even in weirder rooms (ones where there is no "great" place to run open), the CK63's have a better rejection rate for chatty people over the CK61's (have run both in close proximity).
CK63's are my vote. If you're going to buy new, keep in mind that the best price I've been able to find is around US$480 for the pair (which is $20 more than what I paid for the CK61's).
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Agreed
63 got my vote mic more inside and out
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I feel the best match for 460 bodies are a60/ck1s
but if you can't find them, then the ck63s work well in most rooms
the ck61s work well outdoors and in nice small rooms if you can't find the a60/ck1s
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If I was only getting on pattern, I would start with cardiods.
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Where do you tape more often of the two:
indoors? get hypers and later cards
outdoors? other way around, get cards and later hypers.
With very few exceptions, if you have a mic maker that does both, that's my reasoning in picking which one to get first.
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Based on the shows that you record (Bars, Clubs & Theaters), I would go with Hypers now and gets some cards for the summer festival season.
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I would not hesitate to run hypers outdoors. In fact, I don't hesitate.
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I would not hesitate to run hypers outdoors. In fact, I don't hesitate.
Agreed, If i am at the OTS at vibes i run hypers. If i am at a smaller outdoor venue i run cards.
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I agree with most of the suggestions posted.
I like the CK-61's outside. I almost never run the CK-63's outside, because they are affected more than the CK-61's by wind.
Big boomy venues I use the CK-63's. In nice small good sounding theatres I use the CK-61's.
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
That's is the exact rig I will be running, please post the link. Thank you
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
That's is the exact rig I will be running, please post the link. Thank you
Funny, I do the same exact thing sometimes too.
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
i have a few show on lma, in kickdown that way
The differences are there but small imo
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
i have a few show on lma, in kickdown that way
The differences are there but small imo
Can you post some links? Thanks
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
i have a few show on lma, in kickdown that way
The differences are there but small imo
Can you post some links? Thanks
here are a couple
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=164701.0
https://archive.org/details/dtb2013-05-17.ck61.flac16
https://archive.org/details/dtb2013-05-17.akg483.flac16
https://archive.org/details/oar2013-08-31.ck61.flac16
https://archive.org/details/oar2013-08-31.akg483.flac16
First two are inside about 30' from stage slightly off center
Last is outside about 300' slightly off
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I feel the best match for 460 bodies are a60/ck1s
but if you can't find them, then the ck63s work well in most rooms
the ck61s work well outdoors and in nice small rooms if you can't find the a60/ck1s
^ i totally agree with this. i love the ck1s caps (that's "s" for sharp, not a plural reference for two ck1 caps), but have never used them for outdoor recording. with the a60 adapter and the 460 bodies it's a wonderful combo. and they're also great with the actives. the downside is they are hard to find and the a60 adapters are expensive.
between the ck61 and ck63 caps my strong preference is for the ck61. up close with minimal crowd noise the ck61 sounds much better to my ears. however, if you're mostly recording in the OTS (or thereabouts) and/or at chatty bars the ck63 gets my vote. i also would not be afraid to use the ck63 caps outdoors. the difference in sensitivity to wind between the ck61 and ck63 is not dramatic, and a good outdoor windscreen will go a long way towards mitigating risk.
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I feel the best match for 460 bodies are a60/ck1s
but if you can't find them, then the ck63s work well in most rooms
the ck61s work well outdoors and in nice small rooms if you can't find the a60/ck1s
^ i totally agree with this. i love the ck1s caps (that's "s" for sharp, not a plural reference for two ck1 caps), but have never used them for outdoor recording. with the a60 adapter and the 460 bodies it's a wonderful combo. and they're also great with the actives. the downside is they are hard to find and the a60 adapters are expensive.
between the ck61 and ck63 caps my strong preference is for the ck61. up close with minimal crowd noise the ck61 sounds much better to my ears. however, if you're mostly recording in the OTS (or thereabouts) and/or at chatty bars the ck63 gets my vote. i also would not be afraid to use the ck63 caps outdoors. the difference in sensitivity to wind between the ck61 and ck63 is not dramatic, and a good outdoor windscreen will go a long way towards mitigating risk.
actually Trent I was referring to plural ck1
I haven't ran the s variety... yet
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I actually ran my ck61's (naiant actives) and ck63's (full body) on the same stand, same spot for Karl Denson this weekend I'll post them tonight. It was indoors
Both were > littlebox > dr680
i have a few show on lma, in kickdown that way
The differences are there but small imo
Can you post some links? Thanks
here are a couple
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=164701.0
https://archive.org/details/dtb2013-05-17.ck61.flac16
https://archive.org/details/dtb2013-05-17.akg483.flac16
https://archive.org/details/oar2013-08-31.ck61.flac16
https://archive.org/details/oar2013-08-31.akg483.flac16
First two are inside about 30' from stage slightly off center
Last is outside about 300' slightly off
Thank you for the examples, to me the ck61 is way better, but I'm a bass lover so... My thinking is I may use the hypers in my busmans and matrix it with the ck61 cards.
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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.0)
here is my full body 463 > littlebox > dr680 pull from Friday night. The ck61 actives will be up tonight in "kickdown"
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I feel the best match for 460 bodies are a60/ck1s
but if you can't find them, then the ck63s work well in most rooms
the ck61s work well outdoors and in nice small rooms if you can't find the a60/ck1s
^ i totally agree with this. i love the ck1s caps (that's "s" for sharp, not a plural reference for two ck1 caps), but have never used them for outdoor recording. with the a60 adapter and the 460 bodies it's a wonderful combo. and they're also great with the actives. the downside is they are hard to find and the a60 adapters are expensive.
between the ck61 and ck63 caps my strong preference is for the ck61. up close with minimal crowd noise the ck61 sounds much better to my ears. however, if you're mostly recording in the OTS (or thereabouts) and/or at chatty bars the ck63 gets my vote. i also would not be afraid to use the ck63 caps outdoors. the difference in sensitivity to wind between the ck61 and ck63 is not dramatic, and a good outdoor windscreen will go a long way towards mitigating risk.
actually Trent I was referring to plural ck1
I haven't ran the s variety... yet
i also love the ck1 ;D i don't think anyone can go wrong with the ck1, ck1s, ck61 or ck63. they're all great caps.
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What B_U_F just said... they're no "wrong" cap; it just depends on what you're use is going to be and where you're going to be positioned. They're both amazing little caps (and that's why I own both). :)
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Once i got my 63's...my 61's sat in my closet for 10 yrs.
If you like the "sizzle" - the 63's never dissapoint.
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Once i got my 63's...my 61's sat in my closet for 10 yrs.
If you like the "sizzle" - the 63's never dissapoint.
In my case, I'm not sure if want to hat mount the 63soso the 61s serve their purpose.
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Here is the link to both sources from Friday night Karl Denson. Same Stand.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.msg2064095#msg2064095 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.msg2064095#msg2064095)
akg 460b/ck63 > littlebox > 680
ck61 > naiant actives > littlebox > 680
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i love the ck1s caps (that's "s" for sharp, not a plural reference for two ck1 caps), but have never used them for outdoor recording.
I think the "S" actually stands for speech, as in a vocal mic.
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Here is the link to both sources from Friday night Karl Denson. Same Stand.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.msg2064095#msg2064095 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.msg2064095#msg2064095)
akg 460b/ck63 > littlebox > 680
ck61 > naiant actives > littlebox > 680
i only had a chance to listen to short clips but it sounded to me like the 63 cut down the crowd and the 61 where more alive for lack of a better term
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Wow the Karl Denson sounds really good. I'd take either but liked the ck61 a little better. However, I might be prejudice to the ck61 since that is what I have listened to for awhile. I see Karl is playin' Tipitina's after WSP Nov 1 show.
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I see Karl is playin' Tipitina's after WSP Nov 1 show.
If your are close by I would recommend checking it out...great show as always!
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I see Karl is playin' Tipitina's after WSP Nov 1 show.
If your are close by I would recommend checking it out...great show as always!
ditto. Karl is one of my favorite live bands to see. i caught the recent shows in Sacramento and Santa Cruz and they were awesome. i really liked the contribution from Zach Deputy, as the Ray Charles stuff exceeded my expectations. i didn't record either show because of the crowd (yak yak yak all night long), but that's a whole other discussion altogether.
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Here is the link to both sources from Friday night Karl Denson. Same Stand.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.msg2064095#msg2064095 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165095.msg2064095#msg2064095)
akg 460b/ck63 > littlebox > 680
ck61 > naiant actives > littlebox > 680
I also prefer the CK61 source, but I have found I like the hypers in a DINa mic config and the fact this recording is a PAS may have something to do with why the CK61/DIN sounds nicer to my ears.
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https://archive.org/details/dtb2013-05-17.ck61.flac16
https://archive.org/details/dtb2013-05-17.akg483.flac16
https://archive.org/details/oar2013-08-31.ck61.flac16
https://archive.org/details/oar2013-08-31.akg483.flac16
First two are inside about 30' from stage slightly off center
Last is outside about 300' slightly off
I prefer the cards in the first one, hypers in the second. I think, like most things, it depends.
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I prefer the cards in the first one, hypers in the second. I think, like most things, it depends.
This is what I was trying to say earlier... one size DOES NOT fit all. Even when a buddy and I have run CK61 and CK63's at the same time, the results have not always been straightforward as to what should sound better versus what did.
I will generally prefer DINa or DIN over PAS unless there is some weird room setup that makes the first two impossible choices.
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the next night.....same spot, same capsules, different Pre's.
https://archive.org/details/kdtu2013-10-26.ck61.tinybox.flac16 (https://archive.org/details/kdtu2013-10-26.ck61.tinybox.flac16) - ck61 > naiant actives/pfa > tinybox
https://archive.org/details/kdtu2013-10-26.akg463.UA5.flac16 (https://archive.org/details/kdtu2013-10-26.akg463.UA5.flac16) - 463 > bm2p+ ua5
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I will generally prefer DINa or DIN over PAS unless there is some weird room setup that makes the first two impossible choices.
I used to think there were situations that DINa or DIN did not work and went with something else along the lines of PAS. I have now found that unless I'm stack taping and go A-B right at the stack, DINa works best for me when using hypers, even in situations where I think the room setup is not ideal. I've not been satisfied with a PAS recording I've made with hypers. I've used ORTF when fairly close a few times and also been happy. That is the measure - are you happy with the recording. I've found I'm happiest with my own when running hypers DINa. YMMV and I expect it will. 8)
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more exact distance from stage - 38' from stage, 3 ft from center
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165298.msg2065980#new
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I will generally prefer DINa or DIN over PAS unless there is some weird room setup that makes the first two impossible choices.
I used to think there were situations that DINa or DIN did not work and went with something else along the lines of PAS. I have now found that unless I'm stack taping and go A-B right at the stack, DINa works best for me when using hypers, even in situations where I think the room setup is not ideal. I've not been satisfied with a PAS recording I've made with hypers. I've used ORTF when fairly close a few times and also been happy. That is the measure - are you happy with the recording. I've found I'm happiest with my own when running hypers DINa. YMMV and I expect it will. 8)
Exactly... I think it's a trial and error situation where you have to figure out what works best FOR YOU and your ears. I've run multiple configs over the years and since graduating to "real" mics, I've found DIN and DINa have their purposes. If I'm in a smaller room, and the layout is decent, I find CK61/DIN is the way to go. If I'm in an odd-shaped room or one that might be chatty/noisy, the CK63/DINa combo is what I reach for. One size really doesn't fit all.
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This is off topic, so feel free not to respond, but I'm curious if people can actually tell the difference between DIN and DINa. Its only a centimeter and a half difference in spacing on either side. How much of a difference can that really make in a big shitty room...
To the OP though, I am very happy with my 63s. I run them 9 times out 10, though thats mostly since its just between these and my CK 1X pair; which are cards made in 1989 and I think the 63s just sound better.
Sort of going along with my first question, but I honestly can't tell much of difference in "openness" between my cards and hypers. That said, I don't do any really critical listening, so I'm sure others will have stronger opinions one way or another. Also, anecdotally, and it might just be the brighter aspect of the mic, or possibly the gear chain? but when unscientifically compared to MK4 recordings I sometimes check out, my 63 recording will sound more 'spacious' than the Schoeps cards. Not quite as detailed and certainly with a different 'flavor' but more open none-the-less.
As for crowd noise reduction in the hyper pattern vs cards, I'm a cynic at heart, and like my stereo pattern choice question above, I have yet to hear any difference in crowd rejection between the choices. Sort of the like the "golden ear," people can say there is but in my personal experience I have not witnessed it. My tests mostly come from running my personal 63s vs. 1X, but also from comparing my 63s to friends MK4, and a little listening to friend's MK4 vs. 41 from shows I've been taping at as well. Acoustic differences are certainly there, but actual amount of background crowd noise I have found to be practically the same across the board.
And again, I'm not a knowledgable or scientific type of taper, so my first hand experience is pretty much based on gut feeling over proper conclusions, but I'm totally happy just running the 63 hyper caps for pretty much everything. 61 caps are certainly on the list, and I would love the option, but the hypers fit my personal needs just fine. YMMobviouslyV.
I will also just add that I ran the 63s very FOB for Panic this weekend and they sound freaking awesome....though I'm sure everyone's does from 7' high that close to the stage. ;D
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DINa vs. DIN can make a difference with CK63 caps. I've run my CK63's on a stand FOB this past summer on a DIN bar and I could hear a little bit of a "hole" in the stereo image (which people talk of). It's not major but 3CM in total closes the gap a little and actually does help (many people have said as much when I asked about this previously -- running CK63's on a DIN bar, etc.).
I own both bars for both sets of caps. It was an additional $55 investment but when I've dropped what I've spent on my hobby, I figured why not. I'd say the caps are the bigger concern of the two and will cut through the sh*ttiest sounding room out there.
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I feel the best match for 460 bodies are a60/ck1s
but if you can't find them, then the ck63s work well in most rooms
the ck61s work well outdoors and in nice small rooms if you can't find the a60/ck1s
100% agreed. The 63's and ac60/ck1's are the caps I own for the 460's. Also in the process of raising funds to pull the trigger on nbob actives for these caps 8)
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PhilZone-Since you can borrow some ck61s, I would buy the ck63s FIRST ;) Plus, since its the time of season when you and I will only be recordings indoors, I would DEF suggest the hypers ;) That way you can save up and find some ck61s for summertime when youll be recording outdoors more often ;)
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PhilZone-Since you can borrow some ck61s, I would buy the ck63s FIRST ;) Plus, since its the time of season when you and I will only be recordings indoors, I would DEF suggest the hypers ;) That way you can save up and find some ck61s for summertime when youll be recording outdoors more often ;)
Hey, don't you know my name :facepalm: ;D
And I can't always borrow, only twice have I been extremely lucky to have an awesome friend to lend (that rhymes) I don't want to bother him repetitively. Plus and I still have other mics that have great sound!
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PhilZone-Since you can borrow some ck61s, I would buy the ck63s FIRST ;) Plus, since its the time of season when you and I will only be recordings indoors, I would DEF suggest the hypers ;) That way you can save up and find some ck61s for summertime when youll be recording outdoors more often ;)
Hey, don't you know my name :facepalm: ;D
And I can't always borrow, only twice have I been extremely lucky to have an awesome friend to lend (that rhymes) I don't want to bother him repetitively. Plus and I still have other mics that have great sound!
Sorry, CAM ;) I know alot of tapers here on ts.com dont like to be called by their real names, hence their handles :P ;) And Im one of them! VERY FEW tapers here on ts.com know my real name 8) I dont like my real name anyway, and have been called Bean by my WHOLE family since I was 5 years old!