Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: taperdave1998 on March 17, 2025, 12:51:48 AM
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This isn't intended to start controversy, but rather, it was a shower thought that hit me this morning.
I'm under the impression that most of us attend shows which are heavy on the PA, loud rock shows or whatever. If such does happen to be the case, why would anyone be concerned with what stereo technique they're running other than just pointed their mics as close to on-axis with the sound sources as possible and calling it good? Or, is that what most of us already do?
This sentiment need not apply to acoustic/orchestral recordings where the venue's acoustics are a genuine part of the recording (a bit more on the professional side, methinks).
I've stealthed many shows since late 2022 when I began this hobby, but only openly taped twice. Both times were PAS and with the two upcoming shows I'll be hitting later this week, I can't imagine I'll be digging out the protractor and/or tape measure for these.
Again, this isn't meant to come off as derogatory or insulting, but it just makes me wonder. Why bother with NOS and ORTF and all that just to record a PA broadcast?
Let me know your thoughts on the matter!
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If you’re outside of critical distance, which is common, definitely PAS. Within, depends on the closeness ratio and the room, the room may be contributing a significant positive to the speaker blast. MS and ambisonics can give you some steerage options for focusing totally PAS or somewhat off axis.
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It just depends on the room. I always PAS because most venues mic up and put out everything through the stacks, but then there are some who only mic a kick drum and vocals. This is where you will have to find a balance.
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Assuming you're talking about directional mics here, here's just one example: I've had success pointing cards slightly wider than the stacks, if I'm in a position where my distance would otherwise require getting my mics farther apart than I can manage in order to get a good stereo image. So long as the stacks are still within the fat part of the heart-shaped pickup pattern, you still get direct PA sound but with a bit more separation.
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If every live music recording situation presents itself the same way, then you're probably going to be spot on doing PAS with directional mics from the sweet spot with mics on a stand 3 or more feet above the crowd. But a) you don't always have that level of control, and b) when you DO have that level of control, you can do WAY better. So, those of us that like to dive deeper equip ourselves with knowledge, such as different mic patterns, different mic configurations, and different stage micing techniques in order to adapt for getting the most out of every situation as it presents itself. Beyond that, the subject matter is encyclopedia-ic and has those of us that love this hobby occupied for 20-or-30 years discussing situations we encounter and how to best capture the sound in those situations.
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Assuming you're talking about directional mics here, here's just one example: I've had success pointing cards slightly wider than the stacks, if I'm in a position where my distance would otherwise require getting my mics farther apart than I can manage in order to get a good stereo image. So long as the stacks are still within the fat part of the heart-shaped pickup pattern, you still get direct PA sound but with a bit more separation.
I recorded in a room in Morgantown, WV that's deep and narrow with brick walls. The PA speakers were essentially against either of the side walls. Very boomy and reverb-y room. PAS was NOT the way to go in that room because you were too far back in the room to get a good sound. It was better just to get as close to the stage as possible and get as much of the stage sound as you could, or just do stage micing which I never did there. I think once I recorded vocals to its own channel from a mic I ran to the stage monitor, otherwise vocals never turned out in that place.
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If you have mics which do not have off-axis response similar to on-axis response, sure PAS.
But some mics are made to have even response no matter which way they are "aimed", as referenced in their polar pattern charts.
Stereo Recording Angle is a whole thing, and I'm no expert, but have made LOTS successful recordings with mics aimed WAY wider than the stacks.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-recording-tools (https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-recording-tools)
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You certainly can just PAS every time and I'm sure get acceptable results a majority of the time (assuming a mostly/entirely PA mix like you mention) but there's a number of reasons people may not choose to do that.
Some folks run the same layout (ORTF, DIN, etc) everywhere they go which can have some benefits like ease of quick setup not having to do any adjusting whether that's because they don't want to or because they might not have time. Could also be an "ol' reliable" concept of them knowing and liking what the array sounds like and just putting that in the best spot they can. I'd imagine those established stereo arrays were developed to try and replicate how human hearing perceives stereo so putting your array of choice in whatever spot you're able is akin to putting a head there and knowing that's what it'll sound like in a sense of consistency and knowing what to expect.
On the other side of the spectrum if, let's say, you PAS but you're wayyyyyyy back in an arena or large field there will be very little angle between the mics; if you don't/can't adjust the spacing as well it may end up sounding more mono than you'd like. That's why Gutbucket developed his Improved PAS technique https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.0 which has a spacing to go along with the various angles to get roughly the same amount of "stereoness" at any given angle. Yes it requires some calculating (or guessing if you don't have the tools and/or do have a decent idea of the concepts: less angle = more spacing, more angle = less spacing) but it's in attempt of maximizing results and will most assuredly net better results than fixed spacing with variable angle.
If you have a fixed spacing and just PAS everywhere you go every recording will have a different amount/flavor of stereo imaging that you won't know until you listen later. While it will always maximize the ratio of direct source to reflections, the angle is just one variable in the array so without consideration of the other variables, it's uncertain what the overall recording will sound like and there likely won't be much consistency from one to the next, even if it's just a different location in the same venue. Will it be noticeable? Who knows, but it will be different.
Everything is a compromise of some sort so you just have to decide where your priorities lie.
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This is why: A really crappy coffee house room where you have to dial in the mic positions. It was not easy and it definitely deviated from my normal DIN with my CM4's which would not have worked, nor pointed at the stacks which were off/on/barely functional. But flexibility works. I check my sight lines and always have phones on. I think I rose and lowered my stand 10x before pressing record just looking at the sonic environment. While rigid mic "systems" can usually pay off, especially in larger spaces, sometimes the taper tweeking means a hellava lot. I blow it sometimes, but sometimes I get it right.
https://archive.org/details/valley-groove-company-03202025-flac-24
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For most of us, this is a hobby. If pointing the mics at the stacks and capturing audio is fulfilling to you, I'm sure people will appreciate the recordings existing. Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle. But you can definitely do better by applying the theory to it, if your gear is up to the task.
For me, the joy in an audience recording is hearing what the music sounds like in the room filled with people. A well done ortf or din recording with good mics transports me to the venue as I listen. I blame the mushrooms I took at that concert in 1989, tho.
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For open taping MS, double MS, ambisonics, and horizontal B format are all good options that can somewhat land at PAS or other virtual positions. Not exactly the same, but adds a flexibility otherwise difficult to do in post. Mind you, can't do a shotgun pattern with that but then if you have enough channels to work with you can always include shotguns with those.
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For most of us, this is a hobby. If pointing the mics at the stacks and capturing audio is fulfilling to you, I'm sure people will appreciate the recordings existing. Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle. But you can definitely do better by applying the theory to it, if your gear is up to the task.
For me, the joy in an audience recording is hearing what the music sounds like in the room filled with people. A well done ortf or din recording with good mics transports me to the venue as I listen. I blame the mushrooms I took at that concert in 1989, tho.
This is why after the second time we patched out of some NAk guns in 1982 we decided never again and made sure to have our own mics at every show. From that point through my 200+ shows recorded we never used Naks nor patched out of them unless it was the ONLY option.
Not that there is anything wrong with those recordings, just that I, along with many other critical listeners in my orbit, did not prefer their sound.
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Yup, I blame those tapes for the typical disdain for audience recordings. I've never preferred a soundboard to a tape done right in the right spot.
For most of us, this is a hobby. If pointing the mics at the stacks and capturing audio is fulfilling to you, I'm sure people will appreciate the recordings existing. Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle. But you can definitely do better by applying the theory to it, if your gear is up to the task.
For me, the joy in an audience recording is hearing what the music sounds like in the room filled with people. A well done ortf or din recording with good mics transports me to the venue as I listen. I blame the mushrooms I took at that concert in 1989, tho.
This is why after the second time we patched out of some NAk guns in 1982 we decided never again and made sure to have our own mics at every show. From that point through my 200+ shows recorded we never used Naks nor patched out of them unless it was the ONLY option.
Not that there is anything wrong with those recordings, just that I, along with many other critical listeners in my orbit, did not prefer their sound.
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I must have been at that same show as Grawk back in the late 80's!
PAS helps maximize direct-sound clarity, when the primary source of direct-sound clarity at the recording position is the PA. Since sufficient clarity is of primary importance, that makes PAS a good taper strategy in many common taper situations. Improved PAS then optimizes further for stereo width and image. In combination with choosing the most appropriate polar pattern, that's as far as many tapers will ever need or want to take things to make good sounding audience recordings.
But of course some of us take things farther in persuit of a teleportation-time-machine-like experience of sounding like being there again, including all the subtle details of audience, ambience, room, even mindset, and memories of the formative concert experiences that changed our lives forever
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...Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle.
^Citation needed. I don't agree that most recordings were 300 PAS. Certainly not from the original section, which was the close version. Ask Frank Streeter, Robert Byrant, Jon or Steve.
I have zero of them in my collection First recording in 82 used AKGs then I switched to KMi84s and homemade electronics. Lots of DiIN and X/Y not PAS. They're on the archive if you'd like to check.
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Congratulations. You win most confrontational agreement to a concept on the forum.
Unless of course you’re denying those nak300 tapes exist, in which case you’re ignorant in addition to being an oppositional asshole.
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Congratulations. You win most confrontational agreement to a concept on the forum.
Unless of course you’re denying those nak300 tapes exist, in which case you’re ignorant in addition to being an oppositional asshole.
Anecdotally, I’m agreeing with the ‘most’ characterization, just because so many nak300 recordings exist from that era. Even if it’s not true, I don’t think we need to call Snopes in for fact checking. 😂
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So sorry I offended you, Grawk. We usually agree so I'm not sure what I said wrong. But sorry.
You write "confrontational agreement to a concept", but my point was I don't agree with OP. I don't think that most recordings were made with nak 300s PAS.
And I cited a few examples of folks who didn't use 'em to back up my assertion, as one does when making an argument of fact.
Were you there to survey the 80s scene? Seemed to me that the majority of 300s arrived when the section got moved back, which I think was the Carrier Dome (?).
Maybe it's just about what cohort one was in. My gang didn't use 'em.
What's the benefit of calling folks names who disagree? How does that improve the conversation?
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Congratulations. You win most confrontational agreement to a concept on the forum.
Unless of course you’re denying those nak300 tapes exist, in which case you’re ignorant in addition to being an oppositional asshole.
hahah you just beat him!
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Ok, so clearly I was being hyperbolic, but the discussion is "What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?", and the nak 300 mid to late 80s dead section tapes are a valid example of how PAS isn't always the optimal choice for recording a concert. You acknowledged that that was true, but chose to focus in on the semantic different between "most" and "many", while acknowledging that the shotgun PAS tapes weren't the best available, and provided a couple of anecdotal examples of better recordings. I'm aware there are MANY better recordings of the dead that weren't section nak tapes. I never heard them until after I became a taper and got access to people with better recordings. The ones that were passed around in the 80s (when I was going to dead shows, but not a taper) were mostly not great tapes. Once I became a taper and made friends in the taping world, I got access to a whole different world of recordings, and learned that things could be better. That's why I learned about ORTF, and then later many other techniques.
I apologize for calling you an oppositional asshole.
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[snip..] I'm aware there are MANY better recordings of the dead that weren't section nak tapes. I never heard them until after I became a taper and got access to people with better recordings. The ones that were passed around in the 80s (when I was going to dead shows, but not a taper) were mostly not great tapes. Once I became a taper and made friends in the taping world, I got access to a whole different world of recordings, and learned that things could be better. That's why I learned about ORTF, and then later many other techniques. [..snip]
That parallels my experience as well.
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Well, I had some measure of success with Naks, and those MOTB FOBs from '85 on were hit or miss, great sound plus the dude one row up screaming for Jerry to play Darkstar also fully captured, yak.
https://archive.org/details/gd1988-03-26.134379.nakcm100.lynn.datbrad.flac16
One from '88 Nak guns>Sony D5.
https://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-22.111269.naks.DATBRAD.flac16
One from '93 2 Nak guns+ center card>mx100>D5>D3 seems well received.
Just sayin.......
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I patched out of Bob Matthews (from CT. , I believe) who ran Shotguns with another taper, they ran two Nak shotguns (probably 300s) on the left directly facing left stack and two directly facing right stack, each left right pair was run by each taper, cables were run into Hi Low impedance transformers to cover massive lengths of cables, no off axis problems, some of the best recordings with shotguns I have. Shows were the 3 dates of the Grateful Dead at Eugene, 1994. I believe that I got the technical description right. 1st night was unreal show, in spite of strong rains. All shows were stellar. Bob
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Eugene 1994 huh?
Did you happen to record Cracker's opening sets?
I've been seeking upgrades, got a good 6/17 Bronco Chase night but could use better 18th & 19th, if they are available
https://archive.org/details/cracker1994-06-17 (https://archive.org/details/cracker1994-06-17)
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I will go through the collection to check, but I probably didn't run for cracker, I was really pissed that Traffic opened for the Dead in Vegas just before this show and that did not continue to Eugene. I was not a cracker fan, had to go to the
gorge to catch Traffic. Bob
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I used to run PAS in addition to mics on stage (healy) & SBD and I found myself almost exclusively preferring the healy / SBD mix. I enjoy shows from the front row and capturing the direct sound from the amps / drum kit, as well as the excitement from the audience directed at the stage, just feels better to me.
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I will go through the collection to check, but I probably didn't run for cracker, I was really pissed that Traffic opened for the Dead in Vegas just before this show and that did not continue to Eugene. I was not a cracker fan, had to go to the
gorge to catch Traffic. Bob
Vegas was after Eugene and the first shows Traffic opened for GD that summer.
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Yeah, I'm mistaken, but I had to call Bill Graham Productions and they told me I should go to the
gorge as Traffic was not going to open in Eugene. We always seem to get less then stellar openers for the Dead in Eugene, the last few years although the Indigo Girls were good. Bob
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I used to run PAS in addition to mics on stage (healy) & SBD and I found myself almost exclusively preferring the healy / SBD mix. I enjoy shows from the front row and capturing the direct sound from the amps / drum kit, as well as the excitement from the audience directed at the stage, just feels better to me.
I agree 100%, and consider PAS as a fallback substitute for SBD + AUD/stagelip/onstage.
PAS is an AUD that prioritizes the PA first and foremost. If only recording 2 channels, good variants of PAS that additionally convey good room and audience impression will often be the most compelling option.
But if good SBD is available and is recorded along with onstage, stagelip, or audience/ambient mics, PAS quicly becomes redundant. The AUD no longer needs to focus on the PA when we have recorded a clean SBD which is feeding it. We can instead use an alternate stereo mic configuration that does a better job of translating the live dynamics on stage, and/or a more involving stereo illusion of the room, audience and ambience, with a more engaging sense of depth and dimension.
Alternately when good SBD is ubavailable, PAS can work well as part of an AUD mic array where there are other mic channels responsible for picking up that other stuff. Again sort of acting as a substitute for SBD, except in this case the mix of direct SBD-like sound from the PAS mics and the ambience/audience/room part is not already "baked in" to the 2-ch PAS recording but can be adjusted later.
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"PAS" doesn't actually tell you very much if you're not also noting how widely the pair is spaced. Let's assume an angle of 50 degrees. A 20cm spacing and a 50cm spacing, even if, in both cases, the mics are PAS, are going to sound very different from one another.
So it's not enough to say, "why doesn't everyone run PAS?" You'd also have to ask why people choose to space their microphones as much or as little as they do
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Noah knows.
Here's the recipe for making better 2-channel PAS recordings with "everything already baked in" >>Improved PAS table<< (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409) That indicates how wide to space a PAS pair based on whatever the PAS angle happens to be between the two mics, improving stereo image. Using that to full advantage does require the ability to adjust spacing as well as angle, along with a relatively wide mic-bar, but alternately you might select a PAS angle/spacing combination suited to most of the situations in which you record and then have a non-adjustable 3d printed mic bar built. Could have two or three of them made to accommodate various PAS angles and/or polar patterns and switch between them as needed.
The important variable that remains for the PAS taper to choose is which polar pattern to use.
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the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.
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Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.
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the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.
I dont prefer a dry recording, I want the room as well.
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the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.
I dont prefer a dry recording, I want the room as well.
Our recordings of David Grisman Birthday concert are almost non listenable due to audience response during and after songs, I can turn down the audience after songs in post production but even though Sam and Joe Craven specifically asked people to hold applause until end of songs and NOT talk during songs it was ignored by a sizable minority which made me cringe every time one of these fuckers opened their mouth during quiet bluegrass songs. Wolf whistles, whoops, loud clapping, none of it is acceptable. American audiences eat shit! Totally makes transitions between players solos hard to hear. The idea of a "dry" recording or room being preferable is ridiculous in these situations, one of these assholes had the nerve to ask for a recording during set break, I roasted the fuck out of him, his response? Everyone is doing it, you're just a cranky old man. At that point I told him (among other insults) that he was just a drunken asshole who was in the minority, and that if everyone did it the musicians would probably walk off stage as no one could hear what they were doing. My Sam Grisman Project recordings are in the same boat, thank God for Ed Griffin for giving me a wonderful board feed. What gets me is the total disrespect that these people (with a warped psychological need to be heard) have towards musicians who go out of their way to ask folks politely to shut the fuck up during songs. Give me a "dry" room anytime please! Bob
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Sound like a very dry response Bob. ANy taper worth their salt will tell you that even using 5-10% of ambient makes a TON of difference be it on stage or FOH. Sorry you had such a terrible time with us Americans...Plan better next time Bob.✌
My planning was spot on. If you don't like my post about the general behavior of a sizable minority in American audiences, well, I can't help that nor do I care . If you can get close to the stage for recording that's great. I've done more then my share of on stage and close to the stage recording. As far as "any taper worth their salt", any more passive aggressive crap you want to fling? Sounds like the a-hole I mention above. Bob
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As far as "hoping it works out better for you next time", rings pretty hollow to me. If you don't want to not call out assholes that's your call. Trying to guilt me with getting another taper thrown out, well, that's just more passive aggressive crap. If not calling out jerks who ruin everyone's concert experience is your thing, good for you. Goes along with passive aggressive behavior. I'm through with responding to you, pretty hopeless conversing with you. Thanks for nothing. Bob P.S. When discussing your response with Melanie, she said (about you) "If you want to take it up the ass , fine. I won't take it up the ass." As I said, I wouldn't have told this asshole off but he initiated a conversation with me asking for a recording, and by the way, he referred to me as a "cranky old man". The fart part was your add on, shows more of your cowardly passive aggressive garbage. Bob
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Suck it Top Hat. Your patronizing attitude toward Bob is bullshit. Bob was PERFECTLY within his rights to give a drunk asshole shit AFTER said asshole asked him for a recording. Fuck people that go to an intimate acoustic show and talk the whole time. It has nothing to do with tapers and everything to do with human decency and etiquette.
Last week I had a douchebag elbow his way in front of me 20 minutes after the headliner started, and said something on the way by implying I was some sort of wrong for getting to 'the spot' before showtime and standing there (stealthing) the entire show while being 6'3" tall. Said douchebag then turns his back towards to the stage and proceeds to jibber jabber the whole show. I wanted to fucking floor him by the end of the night for being so rude.
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Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.
No idea what you mean, maybe I'm not worth my salt, but would you care to explain this?
Also, how close to 100%? Like 5 nines?
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Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.
No idea what you mean, maybe I'm not worth my salt, but would you care to explain this?
Also, how close to 100%? Like 5 nines?
98.673412% of you..
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the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.
I dont prefer a dry recording, I want the room as well.
Our recordings of David Grisman Birthday concert are almost non listenable due to audience response during and after songs, I can turn down the audience after songs in post production but even though Sam and Joe Craven specifically asked people to hold applause until end of songs and NOT talk during songs it was ignored by a sizable minority which made me cringe every time one of these fuckers opened their mouth during quiet bluegrass songs. Wolf whistles, whoops, loud clapping, none of it is acceptable. American audiences eat shit! Totally makes transitions between players solos hard to hear. The idea of a "dry" recording or room being preferable is ridiculous in these situations, one of these assholes had the nerve to ask for a recording during set break, I roasted the fuck out of him, his response? Everyone is doing it, you're just a cranky old man. At that point I told him (among other insults) that he was just a drunken asshole who was in the minority, and that if everyone did it the musicians would probably walk off stage as no one could hear what they were doing. My Sam Grisman Project recordings are in the same boat, thank God for Ed Griffin for giving me a wonderful board feed. What gets me is the total disrespect that these people (with a warped psychological need to be heard) have towards musicians who go out of their way to ask folks politely to shut the fuck up during songs. Give me a "dry" room anytime please! Bob
I am SO sorry to hear this Bob. I’ve been thinking about that Grisman show since you posted you were going and wondered how your recording turned out. If I had been able to find a direct flight from Ottawa I would have been there. The YouTube clips showed some amazing, intimate jams by some of my heroes. Garcia/Grisman 2/3/91 is one of my favourite shows ever.
I have this problem at a lot of shows as well. It seems that some people just go to shows to drink and socialize. I get it, but wish they would at least respect the music while it’s playing. I went to Dead and Co the Sphere last year and some guy chatted right through the whole show at the top of his lungs. This was most evident during the quiet sections (Dew, Dark Star, etc.). I’m now down to seeing shows up close, very loud shows or jazz acts where there is less of a party crowd because otherwise I don’t get to enjoy the music. Guess I’m a grumpy old man.
If I can get RIGHT up front I will run open cards or omnis but for any larger show, where I’m typically back by the SBD, I’m usually trying to maximize PA to audience ratio for just this reason.
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Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
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Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around... :yahoo:
Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around... :yahoo:
This guy is a real piece of shit. Sticking up for other pieces of shit who are "just trying to have a good time". I also hope to see this asshole at a show so I can stand next to his mics and talk loudly, scream and whoop at random throughout songs, and then ask him for a copy. I'd really like to see him outside the show, I could show him that not only can I be a "cranky old man" but I can be a mean, cranky old man. This guy needs to get a brain transplant. To defend assholes who treat respectful audience members with obnoxious behavior is about as big an asshole that I've seen here since Jerryfreak was around. Fuck him and the horse he fucked before he came to town. Eat shit and die, be thankful you are on the other side of the country, I'd come to shows you attend just to fuck with you. Big Time!
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This is an illuminating thread...Sigh...
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Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around... :yahoo:
Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around... :yahoo:
This guy is a real piece of shit. Sticking up for other pieces of shit who are "just trying to have a good time". I also hope to see this asshole at a show so I can stand next to his mics and talk loudly, scream and whoop at random throughout songs, and then ask him for a copy. I'd really like to see him outside the show, I could show him that not only can I be a "crankly olsd man" but I can be a mean, cranky old man. This guy needs to get a brain transplant. To defend assholes who treat respectful audience members with obnoxious behavior is about as big an asshole that I've seen here since Jerryfreak was around. Fuck him and the horse he fucked before he came to town. Eat shit and die, be thankful you are on the other side of the country, I'd come to shows you attend just to fuck with you. Big Time!
Plan better next time Bob and lose the attitude ...seriously you need some anger management classes. You have an open invite from me to come out to Salt Lake ANYTIME and roll a show with me.
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Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around... :yahoo:
Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?. I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or sites available to everyone else. I have issues with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol Bob (and Melanie)
Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around... :yahoo:
This guy is a real piece of shit. Sticking up for other pieces of shit who are "just trying to have a good time". I also hope to see this asshole at a show so I can stand next to his mics and talk loudly, scream and whoop at random throughout songs, and then ask him for a copy. I'd really like to see him outside the show, I could show him that not only can I be a "cranky old man" but I can be a mean, cranky old man. This guy needs to get a brain transplant. To defend assholes who treat respectful audience members with obnoxious behavior is about as big an asshole that I've seen here since Jerryfreak was around. Fuck him and the horse he fucked before he came to town. Eat shit and die, be thankful you are on the other side of the country, I'd come to shows you attend just to fuck with you. Big Time!
I've met Jerryfreak before...He was respectable ..little wirey but a nice enough guy. What is your beef with him? Did he trigger you somehow...maybe breathe wrong ?
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If you don't know what EVERYONE'S beef is with Jerryfreak, you certainly fit into his catagory. As far as "personally" throwing me out of a show for disrespecting a rude audience member I'll tell you what I tell all bullies. I'll see you in a hospital or jail or both. The fact that you relate to Jerryfreak, a Trump supporter and anti semetitic says it all. Once again, fuck you. I'm done now. no one here agrees with you. Get a clue. bob
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If you don't know what EVERYONE'S beef is with Jerryfreak, you certainly fit into his catagory. As far as "personally" throwing me out of a show for disrespecting a rude audience member I'll tell you what I tell all bullies. I'll see you in a hospital or jail or both. The fact that you relate to Jerryfreak, a Trump supporter and anti semetitic says it all. Once again, fuck you. I'm done now. no one here agrees with you. Get a clue. bob
I've met him once here in SLC and did not have any issues with him personally. It appears to me that YOU are the bully here Bob. You are escalating this thread into a personal grievance and attacking me, just like you do with audience members. Well, that didn't work to well for you did it?.THIS IS A HOBBY!!! Have Fun...shit happens ..deal with it or get out of the game.
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If you don't know what EVERYONE'S beef is with Jerryfreak, you certainly fit into his catagory. As far as "personally" throwing me out of a show for disrespecting a rude audience member I'll tell you what I tell all bullies. I'll see you in a hospital or jail or both. The fact that you relate to Jerryfreak, a Trump supporter and anti semetitic says it all. Once again, fuck you. I'm done now. no one here agrees with you. Get a clue. bob
I've met him once here in SLC and did not have any issues with him personally. It appears to me that YOU are the bully here Bob. You are escalating this thread into a personal grievance and attacking me, just like you do with audience members. Well, that didn't work to well for you did it? And , I guarantee, attacking me will not work, I promise you. I say again... PLEASE come out here or I can come see you. Maybe I can EDUCATE you in proper professional etiquette so that tapers and the audience can coexist with each other. Like one member said here ...THIS IS A HOBBY!!! Have Fun...shit happens ..deal with it or get out of the game son.
Top Hat dude: STOP. YOU are deliberately ruining this thread. Bob/Melanie was merely talking about annoying audiences, which IF you are a TAPER, you will experience ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Jerryfreak was an annoying blowhard with a CONservative bent of acting contrarian even when it was evident he cared less about the thing he was pushing everyone's buttons with.. I can ASSURE you, there was maybe 5 frequent posters here who stuck up for his side of the BS.
Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
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If you don't know what EVERYONE'S beef is with Jerryfreak, you certainly fit into his catagory. As far as "personally" throwing me out of a show for disrespecting a rude audience member I'll tell you what I tell all bullies. I'll see you in a hospital or jail or both. The fact that you relate to Jerryfreak, a Trump supporter and anti semetitic says it all. Once again, fuck you. I'm done now. no one here agrees with you. Get a clue. bob
I've met him once here in SLC and did not have any issues with him personally. It appears to me that YOU are the bully here Bob. You are escalating this thread into a personal grievance and attacking me, just like you do with audience members. Well, that didn't work to well for you did it? And , I guarantee, attacking me will not work, I promise you. I say again... PLEASE come out here or I can come see you. Maybe I can EDUCATE you in proper professional etiquette so that tapers and the audience can coexist with each other. Like one member said here ...THIS IS A HOBBY!!! Have Fun...shit happens ..deal with it or get out of the game son.
Top Hat dude: STOP. YOU are deliberately ruining this thread. Bob/Melanie was merely talking about annoying audiences, which IF you are a TAPER, you will experience ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Jerryfreak was an annoying blowhard with a CONservative bent of acting contrarian even when it was evident he cared less about the thing he was pushing everyone's buttons with.. I can ASSURE you, there was maybe 5 frequent posters here who stuck up for his side of the BS.
Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Who ruined a thread? talking about annoying audience members and ripping them a new one and being disrespectful and attacking ME. Bob's attitude is the issue here, he has anger issues and doesnt know how to play nice with others He is who derailed the thread that the OP initially wanted advice on PAS preferences. Please ignore me along with your other comrades. You keep attacking me ill just keep on biting back. You want to make ammends and play nice well im right here too. I am not going to sit here and take any shit from any one of you assholes on here OR IN PERSON..got it? I think you should consider making peace and just letting this go.
Oh, so I and everyone else should just comport themselves they way YOU SEE FIT?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
WHATEVER. Why you so mad bro?
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Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.
No idea what you mean, maybe I'm not worth my salt, but would you care to explain this?
Also, how close to 100%? Like 5 nines?
98.673412% of you..
Decent mics have off-axis response which sound like on axis, as seen on their polar plots.
Decent PA systems have a range of dispersion in which sound is within certain tolerances, as designed in programs like Meyer MAPP and the l'acoustic SoundVision software.
https://www.l-acoustics.com/products/soundvision/ (https://www.l-acoustics.com/products/soundvision/)
Are you suggesting that the only way to make decent tapes with your rig is to run the mics exactly on axis with the PA?
You must be using some terribly lousy gear to record poorly designed and implemented systems if that is important to you.
Any taper worth their salt would upgrade to gear with acceptable off-axis response, and stick with good sounding events!
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Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Go to your profile tab, and next to the words Profile Info there is Modify Profile. That is a pull down menu.
As you hover the mouse over Modify Profile, the menu will pop up and allow you to select Buddies / Ignore list...
Hovering further allows you to edit your ignore list.
Once that's chosen there is a Member: blank at the bottom which lets you search by typing member names.
When you start typing in the blank, the matching names will narrow down with more letters typed
Click ADD when the specific name is in the blank and see if a line is added to your Ignore list.
this link should work for you when you're logged in
https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore (https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore)
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Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.
No idea what you mean, maybe I'm not worth my salt, but would you care to explain this?
Also, how close to 100%? Like 5 nines?
98.673412% of you..
Are you suggesting that the only way to make decent tapes with your rig is to run the mics exactly on axis with the PA?
You must be using some terribly lousy gear to record poorly designed and implemented systems if that is important to you.
Any taper worth their salt would upgrade to gear with acceptable off-axis response, and stick with good sounding events!
Did I say that?
Off axis placements have different tonal responses as does the degree of axis and distance to source. Since no venue, audience, band or FOH engineer is exactly the same, one can take notes of previous experiences with said elements and adjust to mic brand, choices, mic capsule patterns, distances, axis points accordingly. As for my gear, I can take sub par gear and make a solid pull if the external elements are condusive. Case in point...I'm sure any OG taper has recorded with a cassette recorder back in the day which in these times is considered sub par. That being said, I have heard some fantastic pulls with this antiquated equiptment. "Planning" through experience and trial and error IMHO is key here confidence goes hand in hand, gear is second. Hope that clears that up.
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If you don't know what EVERYONE'S beef is with Jerryfreak, you certainly fit into his catagory. As far as "personally" throwing me out of a show for disrespecting a rude audience member I'll tell you what I tell all bullies. I'll see you in a hospital or jail or both. The fact that you relate to Jerryfreak, a Trump supporter and anti semetitic says it all. Once again, fuck you. I'm done now. no one here agrees with you. Get a clue. bob
I've met him once here in SLC and did not have any issues with him personally. It appears to me that YOU are the bully here Bob. You are escalating this thread into a personal grievance and attacking me, just like you do with audience members. Well, that didn't work to well for you did it? And , I guarantee, attacking me will not work, I promise you. I say again... PLEASE come out here or I can come see you. Maybe I can EDUCATE you in proper professional etiquette so that tapers and the audience can coexist with each other. Like one member said here ...THIS IS A HOBBY!!! Have Fun...shit happens ..deal with it or get out of the game son.
Top Hat dude: STOP. YOU are deliberately ruining this thread. Bob/Melanie was merely talking about annoying audiences, which IF you are a TAPER, you will experience ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Jerryfreak was an annoying blowhard with a CONservative bent of acting contrarian even when it was evident he cared less about the thing he was pushing everyone's buttons with.. I can ASSURE you, there was maybe 5 frequent posters here who stuck up for his side of the BS.
Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Who ruined a thread? talking about annoying audience members and ripping them a new one and being disrespectful and attacking ME. Bob's attitude is the issue here, he has anger issues and doesnt know how to play nice with others He is who derailed the thread that the OP initially wanted advice on PAS preferences. Please ignore me along with your other comrades. You keep attacking me ill just keep on biting back. You want to make ammends and play nice well im right here too. I am not going to sit here and take any shit from any one of you assholes on here OR IN PERSON..got it? I think you should consider making peace and just letting this go.
Oh, so I and everyone else should just comport themselves they way YOU SEE FIT?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
WHATEVER. Why you so mad bro?
You and your cohorts are resortng to personal attacks like a bunch of kids. So, im going to treat you like children Kick rocks son!!
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Let's get back on topic.. [edit- this pretty much just expands on what most just posted above]
Always good to define the terms. To clarify, "on-axis", may refer to either the speaker creating the sound or a microphones used to record it.
"Directly on-axis" generally equates to a line down the center of some effective coverage window within which response and sensitivity is held more or less constant. It's is easy to visually identify since its typically directly in-line with the font of the device. The width of the effective coverage window depends on polar pattern and the quality of the speaker or microphone.
The main thing we are concerned about is how much overlap there is between the coverage widow of one or both PA speakers, how much overlap there is between the coverage windows of each of the two microphones, and how much overlap there is between the combined coverage of one or both PA speakers and the combined coverage of the microphone pair.
We don't need to be directly on-axis with the PA speakers themselves, only within their effective coverage window. We don't need to point each microphone directly on-axis with the PA speakers, we only need the PA speaker to be located within the good coverage window of the microphone. We don't have to setup within the effective coverage window of both PA speakers, but the stereo aspects will usually be improved when we can arrange that, and the the stereo aspects will be better when we arrange for an optimal amount of overlap between the effective coverage patterns of the two microphones.
Less critical but also of importance is the offset within and between all those various angles of coverage. We might a find different individual PA speakers to have a wider or narrower angle of effective coverage, and differing degrees of overlapping PA coverage depending on the PA setup and the recording position in the room. Similarly at the pickup end we have wider or narrower windows of effective off-axis coverage from the individual microphones and use them in various stereo configurations that provide different amounts of stereo pattern overlap.
As tapers, we don't have a hand in the design and setup of the PA, but the folks who do very much think in terms of "reverse PAS", at least in effect if not in terminology. The configuration of the PA is arranged to direct its effective coverage window over as much of the audience as practical, essentially pointing the PA directly at you in the audience, while directing as little sound as practical in all other directions.
"PAS" refers specifically to orientation of our microphones from a position out in the audience - angling the stereo pair so that the primary axis of one microphone is pointed directly at the PA speaker on one side of the stage and the the primary axis of the other microphone is pointed directly at the PA on the other side of the stage. We can use alternate stereo microphone configurations that still keep the PA within the effective stereo coverage angle of the stereo pair - that's the critical thing - which may sound better or worse. But none of them will maximize pickup of direct sound from the PA while simultaneously minimizing pickup of sound arriving from everywhere else as much as possible as pointing the microphones directly at the PA speakers is going to do (at least potentially, depending on polar pattern and mics used). When that's the most critical thing to achieve to get a good recording, PAS is the only road that leads all the way to Rome.
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Let's get back on topic.. [edit- this pretty much just expands on what most just posted above]
Always good to define the terms. To clarify, "on-axis", may refer to either the speaker creating the sound or a microphones used to record it.
"Directly on-axis" generally equates to a line down the center of some effective coverage window within which response and sensitivity is held more or less constant. It's is easy to visually identify since its typically directly in-line with the font of the device. The width of the effective coverage window depends on polar pattern and the quality of the speaker or microphone.
The main thing we are concerned about is how much overlap there is between the coverage widow of one or both PA speakers, how much overlap there is between the coverage windows of each of the two microphones, and how much overlap there is between the combined coverage of one or both PA speakers and the combined coverage of the microphone pair.
We don't need to be directly on-axis with the PA speakers themselves, only within their effective coverage window. We don't need to point each microphone directly on-axis with the PA speakers, we only need the PA speaker to be located within the good coverage window of the microphone. We don't have to setup within the effective coverage window of both PA speakers, but the stereo aspects will usually be improved when we can arrange that, and the the stereo aspects will be better when we arrange for an optimal amount of overlap between the effective coverage patterns of the two microphones.
Less critical but also of importance is the offset within and between all those various angles of coverage. We might a find different individual PA speakers to have a wider or narrower angle of effective coverage, and differing degrees of overlapping PA coverage depending on the PA setup and the recording position in the room. Similarly at the pickup end we have wider or narrower windows of effective off-axis coverage from the individual microphones and use them in various stereo configurations that provide different amounts of stereo pattern overlap.
As tapers, we don't have a hand in the design and setup of the PA, but the folks who do very much think in terms of "reverse PAS", at least in effect if not in terminology. The configuration of the PA is arranged to direct its effective coverage window over as much of the audience as practical, essentially pointing the PA directly at you in the audience, while directing as little sound as practical in all other directions.
"PAS" refers specifically to orientation of our microphones from a position out in the audience - angling the stereo pair so that the primary axis of one microphone is pointed directly at the PA speaker on one side of the stage and the the primary axis of the other microphone is pointed directly at the PA on the other side of the stage. We can use alternate stereo microphone configurations that still keep the PA within the effective stereo coverage angle of the stereo pair - that's the critical thing - which may sound better or worse. But none of them will maximize pickup of direct sound from the PA while simultaneously minimizing pickup of sound arriving from everywhere else as much as possible as pointing the microphones directly at the PA speakers is going to do (at least potentially, depending on polar pattern and mics used). When that's the most critical thing to achieve to get a good recording, PAS is the only road that leads all the way to Rome.
I do agree mostly, but PAS is not the end all be all. I respect the amount of research you do Gut, however external elements will throw a curveball into your system. Especially outdoors. If I know a FOH engineer rolls sound tinny because his high end hearing range is smoked due to age or time in the field, I want my mics with a more broader pattern to soften that tinny tone. I am just using this as an example. Weather is another entirely different aspect where I will sometimes use omnis. PAS does not apply here but distance bewtween caps and source does. I hope you can see some of these variances where PAS does not normally apply. However, I find your research fascinating and very well documented and useful in most instances
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Lets calm down here so I don't have a cleanup on aisle 7
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Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Go to your profile tab, and next to the words Profile Info there is Modify Profile. That is a pull down menu.
As you hover the mouse over Modify Profile, the menu will pop up and allow you to select Buddies / Ignore list...
Hovering further allows you to edit your ignore list.
Once that's chosen there is a Member: blank at the bottom which lets you search by typing member names.
When you start typing in the blank, the matching names will narrow down with more letters typed
Click ADD when the specific name is in the blank and see if a line is added to your Ignore list.
this link should work for you when you're logged in
https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore (https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore)
Thanks morst for this post. Never seen that you can ignore TS members. What a great feature.
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Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Go to your profile tab, and next to the words Profile Info there is Modify Profile. That is a pull down menu.
As you hover the mouse over Modify Profile, the menu will pop up and allow you to select Buddies / Ignore list...
Hovering further allows you to edit your ignore list.
Once that's chosen there is a Member: blank at the bottom which lets you search by typing member names.
When you start typing in the blank, the matching names will narrow down with more letters typed
Click ADD when the specific name is in the blank and see if a line is added to your Ignore list.
this link should work for you when you're logged in
https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore (https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore)
Thanks morst for this post. Never seen that you can ignore TS members. What a great feature.
+T
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TH, the key phrase in my post above is this one..
When that's the most critical thing to achieve to get a good recording
PAS a problem solver which helps with one of the most common taping problems, and it's straight-forward conceptually, making it a good, easy path of entry to taping. In an ideal situation PAS isn't needed and in general I prefer wider patterns and non-PAS configurations whenever the situation allows for it, yet PAS remains the safest routes to a decent recording. Even when moving beyond it to other configurations that can produce a more engaging recording in good situations, it will always remain a good fundamental technique as the best solution for a really tough acoustic outside of a soundboard patch.
For practical reasons, to avoid changing up my physical microphone configuration each time I stack the deck with a combination of wide spaced pair of omnis along with near-ish spaced pair of supercards that can be angled a bit more tightly for PAS when necessary, and a M/S stereo shotgun in the center pointed directly at the stage. That allows me to adjust balance between those various pairs as needed to accommodate different acoustics, weather, audience, and whatever else. That works great for getting the best of both worlds, but is a more complex multichannel solution to the problem.
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<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>
Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century??? Anybody remember his name?
Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?
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Dillon?
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<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>
Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century??? Anybody remember his name?
Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?
Not the same dude.
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<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>
Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century??? Anybody remember his name?
Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?
Not the same dude.
Party Pooper!! :yack:
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Otherwise, could a moderator please let me know how to put someone on ignore?
Go to your profile tab, and next to the words Profile Info there is Modify Profile. That is a pull down menu.
As you hover the mouse over Modify Profile, the menu will pop up and allow you to select Buddies / Ignore list...
Hovering further allows you to edit your ignore list.
Once that's chosen there is a Member: blank at the bottom which lets you search by typing member names.
When you start typing in the blank, the matching names will narrow down with more letters typed
Click ADD when the specific name is in the blank and see if a line is added to your Ignore list.
this link should work for you when you're logged in
https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore (https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore)
Thank You very much for this post morst. Helps to learn new things every now and then.
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<donning my Sherlock Holmes mail-in detective kit>
Does anyone else feel that TopHat sounds like that dude from 7 or 10 years ago that spilled shit into the back of his TV and then tried to pawn it off as a warranty issue, then when people gave him shit, he kept unsubbing and coming back as someone else and every time he posted, he'd just keep digging himself deeper and deeper as being the asshole of the century??? Anybody remember his name?
Is Top Hat that same dude reincarnated, or what?!?
Not the same dude.
Maybe not, just a clone of his attitude. Bob
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Thank You very much for this post morst. Helps to learn new things every now and then.
SUPER!
Thanks for asking!
(http://images.paramount.tech/path/mgid:file:gsp:entertainment-assets:/sps/shared/characters/adults/biggayal.png)
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Not sure if I want to wade into this thread again, but I have to add when I am recording outdoors where indirect reflection is not a factor, I stick to 90 degrees. This is based on the notion that minimizing mono summing of the crowd nearest in proximity to the mics and off to the sides can be beneficial because most good cardioid and hypercardioid mics are just as sensitive at 45 degrees off axis as they are directly on axis. The sound energy of the PA will be captured equally either way, but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics. As the angle between the mics narrows, the ratio between crowd and music decreases. Indoors the priority is finding the right balance between direct and indirect sound and that is where I find PAS can make the most difference. This view is based on my own experiences, not anything scientific. YMMV as the saying goes....
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^ Yeah that.
A few things about it..
Practically: 90 degrees is easy to visualize and arrange when using an adjustable stereo mic mount.
Overall: When summed together, a pair of cardioids/supercards with a 90 degree angle between them produces a combined sensitivity pattern that's more-or-less the shape of a single forward facing subcardioid, which IME is generally optimal for recording in good acoustic situations regardless of the specific details of the stereo microphone configuration used to achieve it.
Stereo qualities: As Brad mentions, when we narrow the angle from 90deg and bring it in closer to PAS, we tighten up the combined sensitivity pattern, which increases the ratio of PA and stage sound (music) verses ambient/audience sound. When doing that, we can seek to retain good stereo qualities by increasing the spacing between the pair as the angle is made narrower (this is the basis for improved PAS). In doing that we increase the time-difference stereo qualities as a way of compensating for the reduction in level-difference stereo brought about by the narrower angle. The narrowed angle decreases level-differences between channels, while the increased spacing increases time-differences between them. Ok, nothing new there, but lets dig deeper into it..
When a 90-deg angled cardioid/supercardioid pair is setup with the appropriate spacing between mics, the stereo attributes of the resulting recording will consist of a pretty even balance of level-difference stereo and time-difference stereo. An 50/50 distribution of level vs time difference is a generally optimal target for a cardioid or supercardioid stereo pair and will be produced by a stereo configuration somewhere between DIN and NOS (a bit more toward the DIN side). However a 50/50 distribution isn't necessarily the appropriate target if using other polar patterns. To achieve the same near 50/50 distribution using a pair of subcardioids would require them to be setup at 170o/22cm to 180o/23cm. That will produce a combined sensitivity pattern that's basically omnidirectional rather than subcardioid shaped and might work great on-stage, but probably less so out in the audience even in a good room. If the subcards are angled less than that, we ideally need to use more spacing between them to compensate for the lack of level-difference due to the narrower angle, and the stereo qualities that result will be produced by time-difference more than level-difference. Omnis even more so. The stereo qualities that result from that are generally what we expect from those patterns. The opposite is true for a fig-8 pair. A coincident Blumlein pair with no spacing between the mics is 100% level-difference stereo with no time-difference and the stereo qualities that result from that are what are generally expected from fig-8s used as a Blumlein pair. To achieve a 50/50 distribution using fig-8's would require narrowing the angle to 70o with them spaced 34cm apart. That's not unreasonable for a pair of fig-8's in PAS. It should produce good stereo qualities and a collective sensitivity pattern that is tic-tac shaped, just as sensitive to sound arriving from behind as from the front, while reducing pickup of talkers and other sounds off to either side of the recording position more than any other configuration that produces roughly the same stereo image width.
A narrowed angle between a PAS pair increases pickup of the music and decreases pickup of audience which is the goal, but like Brad mentions, any obnoxious chatter off to either side which is picked up will tend to have less level difference between channels than if the angle was wider. If the narrowed angle is not compensated for by increased spacing, that chatter is going to increasingly compete perceptually with the music due to both inhabiting a similar position within the less differentiated stereo image. Increasing the spacing between the pair helps by perceptually pushing the talkers who were over to one side or the other farther out to the sides in the resulting stereo image keeping them a bit more out of the way of the music.
[Edit- I think the advantage of the increased spacing used by improved PAS is as much about getting the audience out of the way of the music as it is about improving the stereo image width of the musical content itself]
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but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics.
Bro, just tell your old lady to keep it down!
This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol. Here we are talking about angles and not even the distance between caps. I cant wait for that thread to pop up.
queue michael jackson eating popcorn gif.
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but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics.
Bro, just tell your old lady to keep it down!
This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol. Here we are talking about angles and not even the distance between caps. I cant wait for that thread to pop up.
queue michael jackson eating popcorn gif.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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but the girls talking 10 feet off to one side of the mic pair will not be as noticable if they are mostly being captured by just one of the mics.
Bro, just tell your old lady to keep it down!
This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol. Here we are talking about angles and not even the distance between caps. I cant wait for that thread to pop up.
queue michael jackson eating popcorn gif.
You can't tell ANYONE to "keep it down", one member here will "personally throw you out" as you are interfering with the offenders ability to "have a good time". He's also fine with the people in a movie theater talking loudly during the movie. After all, they just are having a good time! And movie tickets are cheaper than concert tickets so fuck anyone who expects a certain amount of respect for other patrons (and musicians) trying to enjoy the music that costs significantly more than a movie ticket. But you can buy popcorn at a movie theater so at least there's that! As far as mic angles, I try to split the difference between speakers and stage, using cards from center of balcony lip. I find that it seems to cut down side chatter but still picks up something meaningful from the stage. If vocals seem weak I'll point directly at stacks hoping to improve amount of vocals. I find most hanging stacks have speakers with slight angle pointed inwards which helps. I picked up a set of DPA microdot extensions recently so I'll try to spread out the distance between mics to reduce angle but then lose ability to avoid chatter further away. Usually folks on either side of us are quieter possibly due to respect for the taper, but generally if someone is in the front row of the balcony they are there to hear the music, not to talk during ths show. Bob
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This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol.
At least now we all know that we tapers collectively know nothing about stack taping and we're poor planners.
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Good for you Bob !!! Talk through it more and you will eventually come up with a better plan. That always helps the beginners/novices level up their experience and be more confident with their choices.
:cheers:
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This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol.
At least now we all know that we tapers collectively know nothing about stack taping and we're poor planners.
You will eventually get there the more you practice...Time is on your side, keep practicing!! :cheers:
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This thread got way out of hand, all over mic configs. lol.
At least now we all know that we tapers collectively know nothing about stack taping and we're poor planners.
You will eventually get there the more you practice...Time is on your side, keep practicing!! :cheers:
This is very true...but with my golf game. I'm not sure that time is on my side though. I'm 66 and have been golfing religiously for 42 years now. Dad is 89 and he still plays, so maybe I've still got another 23 years to improve. Lowest handicap was +1.9 and currently sit at 3.6, which is actually pretty good for a nearly 67-year old, but you're never as good as you want to be. I've only been taping for 32 years, so I guess I really am just a noob compared to my golf experience.