Topic: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?

[Gutbucket]

Noah knows.

Here's the recipe for making better 2-channel PAS recordings with "everything already baked in" >>Improved PAS table<<  That indicates how wide to space a PAS pair based on whatever the PAS angle happens to be between the two mics, improving stereo image.  Using that to full advantage does require the ability to adjust spacing as well as angle, along with a relatively wide mic-bar, but alternately you might select a PAS angle/spacing combination suited to most of the situations in which you record and then have a non-adjustable 3d printed mic bar built.  Could have two or three of them made to accommodate various PAS angles and/or polar patterns and switch between them as needed.

The important variable that remains for the PAS taper to choose is which polar pattern to use.

[bonghitwillie]

the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.

[Top Hat]

Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.

[Top Hat]

the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.

I dont prefer a dry recording, I want the room as well.

[Melanie]

the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.

I dont prefer a dry recording, I want the room as well.

Our recordings of David Grisman Birthday concert are almost non listenable due to  audience response during and after songs, I can turn down the audience after songs in post production but even though Sam and Joe Craven specifically asked people to hold applause until end of songs and NOT talk during songs it was ignored by a sizable minority which made me cringe every time one of these fuckers opened their mouth during quiet bluegrass songs. Wolf whistles, whoops, loud clapping, none of it is acceptable. American audiences eat shit! Totally makes transitions between players solos  hard to hear. The idea of a "dry" recording or room being preferable is ridiculous in these situations, one of these assholes had the nerve to ask for a recording during set break, I roasted the fuck out of him, his response? Everyone is doing it, you're just a cranky old man. At that point I told him (among other insults) that he was just a drunken asshole who was in the minority, and that if everyone did it the musicians would probably walk off stage as no one could hear what they were doing. My Sam Grisman Project recordings are in the same boat, thank God for Ed Griffin for giving me a wonderful board feed. What gets me is the total disrespect that these people (with a warped psychological need to be heard) have towards musicians who go out of their way to ask folks politely to shut the fuck up during songs. Give me a "dry" room anytime please! Bob

[Melanie]

Sound like a very dry response Bob. ANy taper worth their salt will tell you that even using 5-10% of ambient makes a TON of difference be it on stage or FOH.  Sorry you had such a terrible time with us Americans...Plan better next time Bob.✌

My planning was spot on. If you don't like my post about the general behavior of a sizable minority in American audiences, well, I can't help that nor do I care . If you can get close to the stage for recording that's great. I've done more then my share of on stage and close to the stage recording. As far as "any taper worth their salt", any more passive aggressive crap you want to fling?  Sounds like the a-hole I mention above. Bob

[Melanie]

 As far as "hoping it works out better for you next time", rings pretty hollow to me. If you don't want to not call out assholes that's your call. Trying to guilt me with getting another taper thrown out, well, that's just more passive aggressive crap. If not  calling out jerks who ruin everyone's concert experience is your thing, good for you. Goes along with passive aggressive behavior. I'm through with responding to you, pretty hopeless conversing with you. Thanks for nothing. Bob P.S. When discussing your response with Melanie, she said (about you)  "If you want to take it up the ass , fine. I won't take it up the ass." As I said, I wouldn't have told this asshole off but he initiated a conversation with me asking for a recording, and by the way, he referred to me as a "cranky old man". The fart part was your add on, shows more of your cowardly passive aggressive garbage. Bob

[fanofjam]

Suck it Top Hat.  Your patronizing attitude toward Bob is bullshit.  Bob was PERFECTLY within his rights to give a drunk asshole shit AFTER said asshole asked him for a recording.  Fuck people that go to an intimate acoustic show and talk the whole time.  It has nothing to do with tapers and everything to do with human decency and etiquette.

Last week I had a douchebag elbow his way in front of me 20 minutes after the headliner started, and said something on the way by implying I was some sort of wrong for getting to 'the spot' before showtime and standing there (stealthing) the entire show while being 6'3" tall.  Said douchebag then turns his back towards to the stage and proceeds to jibber jabber the whole show.  I wanted to fucking floor him by the end of the night for being so rude.

[morst]

Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.

No idea what you mean, maybe I'm not worth my salt, but would you care to explain this?
Also, how close to 100%? Like 5 nines?

[Top Hat]

Almost 100% of you guys I see taping are using OFF axis methods even PAS, even A-B stereo.

No idea what you mean, maybe I'm not worth my salt, but would you care to explain this?
Also, how close to 100%? Like 5 nines?

98.673412% of you..

[Thelonious]

the best recordings are front row in front of a front fill speaker that hopefully has everything in the mix and is at a good volume. but you never know until the band starts. if you are too close to a pa speaker/stack (5'-10' or less) and you move a tiny bit you will get phasing. but if you are stationary or with a stand you pretty much have a sbd recording. might have to do some eq in post.

I dont prefer a dry recording, I want the room as well.

Our recordings of David Grisman Birthday concert are almost non listenable due to  audience response during and after songs, I can turn down the audience after songs in post production but even though Sam and Joe Craven specifically asked people to hold applause until end of songs and NOT talk during songs it was ignored by a sizable minority which made me cringe every time one of these fuckers opened their mouth during quiet bluegrass songs. Wolf whistles, whoops, loud clapping, none of it is acceptable. American audiences eat shit! Totally makes transitions between players solos  hard to hear. The idea of a "dry" recording or room being preferable is ridiculous in these situations, one of these assholes had the nerve to ask for a recording during set break, I roasted the fuck out of him, his response? Everyone is doing it, you're just a cranky old man. At that point I told him (among other insults) that he was just a drunken asshole who was in the minority, and that if everyone did it the musicians would probably walk off stage as no one could hear what they were doing. My Sam Grisman Project recordings are in the same boat, thank God for Ed Griffin for giving me a wonderful board feed. What gets me is the total disrespect that these people (with a warped psychological need to be heard) have towards musicians who go out of their way to ask folks politely to shut the fuck up during songs. Give me a "dry" room anytime please! Bob

I am SO sorry to hear this Bob. I’ve been thinking about that Grisman show since you posted you were going and wondered how your recording turned out. If I had been able to find a direct flight from Ottawa I would have been there. The YouTube clips showed some amazing, intimate jams by some of my heroes. Garcia/Grisman 2/3/91 is one of my favourite shows ever.

I have this problem at a lot of shows as well. It seems that some people just go to shows to drink and socialize. I get it, but wish they would at least respect the music while it’s playing. I went to Dead and Co the Sphere last year and some guy chatted right through the whole show at the top of his lungs. This was most evident during the quiet sections (Dew, Dark Star, etc.). I’m now down to seeing shows up close, very loud shows or jazz acts where there is less of a party crowd because otherwise I don’t get to enjoy the music. Guess I’m a grumpy old man.

If I can get RIGHT up front I will run open cards or omnis but for any larger show, where I’m typically back by the SBD, I’m usually trying to maximize PA to audience ratio for just this reason.

[Melanie]

Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording  on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?.  I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
  If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or  sites available to everyone else. I have issues  with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol   Bob (and Melanie)

[Melanie]

Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording  on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?.  I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
  If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or  sites available to everyone else. I have issues  with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol   Bob (and Melanie)

Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around...

Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording  on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?.  I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
  If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or  sites available to everyone else. I have issues  with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol   Bob (and Melanie)

Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around...
This guy is a real piece of shit. Sticking up for other pieces of shit who are "just trying to have a good time". I  also hope to see this asshole at  a show so I can stand next to his mics and talk loudly, scream and whoop at random throughout  songs, and then ask him for a copy. I'd really like to see him outside the show, I could show him that not only can I be a "cranky old man" but I can be a mean, cranky old man. This guy needs to get a brain transplant. To defend assholes who treat respectful audience members with obnoxious behavior is about as big an asshole that I've seen here since Jerryfreak was around. Fuck him and the horse he fucked before he came to town. Eat shit and die, be thankful you are on the other side of the country, I'd come to shows you attend just to fuck with you. Big Time!

[aaronji]

This is an illuminating thread...Sigh...

[Top Hat]

Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording  on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?.  I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
  If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or  sites available to everyone else. I have issues  with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol   Bob (and Melanie)

Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around...

Thanks for supportive posts, ( all except Top Hat who continually tells us all (well, 98.67% of us) that we are doing it all wrong due to "poor planning" or just ignorance) recording is quite listenable after post production cutting down audience applause after each song. Still lots of applause during songs and whoops, whistles and yelling, but we've grown somewhat immune to it these days, it's the generational divide , I guess. Never seen audience response brickwall recording  on this level. It's kind of funny, 28 years before this show I recorded the David Grisman Quartet in the same theater , same seating location (1st balcony, center, lip, nak 701s, vs. Shoeps 4vs this time), night and day comparison to last weeks recording. Audience was respectful, no talking during songs audible, some applause during songs, but nowhere near the level of assholish behavior we get nowadays. I belong to numerous fishing forums and all but one ( a quite polite and helpful kokanee forum (freshwater landlocked sockeye salmon) have a majority of real pricks telling one and all that you are doing it all wrong, and if you are not a MAGA supporter you are a moron deserving of ridicule. The worst is the one started by tuna fishermen with big expensive boats. Still lots of good info and fisherfolk on there, just overrun with dickheads. Fortunately we are only dealing with one of those today. Maybe if you are dealing with bands who are starting out or anxious for exposure or are in tiny venues where you can set up in "perfect' on axis locations than you can get "the perfect" recording. Not so much in high demand shows, tight security situations, etc. We all do the best we can and most "off axis recordings" still come out decent. Or do you not listen to most older Grateful Dead recordings done off axis?.  I discussed (earlier in this thread) the only "on axis" recording from a large stadium situation done with 100+ ft. cables I have where I was patched out of Bob Matthews, a well known Dead taper back in the early '90s. Two shotguns on left, same on right, one recorder on left, another on right, equal length cables for each channel. One of the best recordings in Autzen Stadium I have. Comments from Top Hat? Crickets.
  If anyone wants to post my recordings on Taper's section (both last week and '97 show P.M. me and I'll send off original files as well as CDrs tracked with muted audience after each song and equalized. Send me address and I'll mail them off, I only want them them posted here, not on Dime or  sites available to everyone else. I have issues  with Joe Blow posting shit so it can be sold in Japan or Europe. It will take a week or so, lots on the table in my life right now. As I've discussed before I don't upload shows but occasionally will ask some kind soul (see Rocksuitcase .ak.a. Kyle) to post something worthy of sharing, i.e. David Crosby, Jazz is Dead, etc.) Once again, thanks to Morst, Thelonious, and Fanofjam for supportive posts. Helps my fragile ego. lol   Bob (and Melanie)

Hard being supportive to an old blowhard who doesnt have any respect for someone who just wants to have a good time. My comment of off axis recordings is to bring to light that we ALL set up this way most times. Is it wrong? No, It is SOP for tapers to set up this way.
I hear complaints from fans about tapers like you a lot that are ruining the vibe and giving us all a bad name. Try acting professional ...if you know how. I sure hope I get to meet you at a show some time Bob. I bet you are really pleasant to be around...
This guy is a real piece of shit. Sticking up for other pieces of shit who are "just trying to have a good time". I  also hope to see this asshole at  a show so I can stand next to his mics and talk loudly, scream and whoop at random throughout  songs, and then ask him for a copy. I'd really like to see him outside the show, I could show him that not only can I be a "crankly olsd man" but I can be a mean, cranky old man. This guy needs to get a brain transplant. To defend assholes who treat respectful audience members with obnoxious behavior is about as big an asshole that I've seen here since Jerryfreak was around. Fuck him and the horse he fucked before he came to town. Eat shit and die, be thankful you are on the other side of the country, I'd come to shows you attend just to fuck with you. Big Time!

Plan better next time Bob and lose the attitude ...seriously you need some anger management classes. You have an open invite from me to come out to Salt Lake ANYTIME and roll a show with me.