Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: divamum on September 30, 2006, 10:44:53 AM
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Hi all!
For once, I have a chance to openly tape a performance and the luxury of being in a venue I can access before the fact, check levels, play with mic placement etc. Woohoo! However, having only really stealthed myself to date, I'm pretty clueless regarding what to do with this lovely oppportunity....
Voice + piano (classical vocal recital).
I may run both of my current rigs for the performance if only to hear the differences. I have at my disposal (since <SOB> I can't afford DPAs before November)
CMC8 omnis
AT831 Cardioids
iRiver 120 running rockbox
Reactive preamp + JB3
1 4'6" tall mic stand
1 home made jecklin disk
I'll likely run hte CMC8s into the iRiver, and the 831s+pre into the JB3 (although no reason I could'nt do it the other way round - perhaps something to experiment with)
The venue is a smallish recital room with a rather live acoustic. IRL, the wet acoustic is quite vocally flattering (although isntrumentalists have complained it's too echo-y, and with a small ensemble it was deafening. New space - they're still tweaking the acoustic!). I'm reckoning I can site a stand in the aisle just in front of the first row, so maybe.... 12-14ft away from me and the piano. Performance area is NOT raised; room is all on one level.
So, suggestions on ideal placement, mic positioning to try and anything else y'all care to throw at me would be MIGHTY welcomed. Also, how does one accurately position stealth mics? When I've tried in the past, they just kinda flop around even when I clip them to stuff! And what would be a good setup for the AT831s (they're the SP minis)
In any case, all suggestions welcomed ESPECIALLY since i have 6 weeks where I can play around with this at my leisure!
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So, suggestions on ideal placement, mic positioning to try and anything else y'all care to throw at me would be MIGHTY welcomed. Also, how does one accurately position stealth mics? When I've tried in the past, they just kinda flop around even when I clip them to stuff! And what would be a good setup for the AT831s (they're the SP minis)
Don't know about the location/positioning you'd want, but I can show you how I openly run my AT831s. I took a yardstick and drilled a hole so it would mount on my stand. The mic clips fit perfectly on the yardstick.
(http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/thumbs/IMG_0172.JPG)
I drew some templates for DIN and ORTF on the smaller ruler, so I can just clip on and run without measuring/guessing angles.
(http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/thumbs/IMG_0173.JPG)
24" AB: (http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/thumbs/IMG_0117.JPG)
ORTF: (http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/thumbs/IMG_0175.JPG)
XY: (http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/thumbs/IMG_0213.JPG)
There are a few more pics/larger pics on my website if you're interested: http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/ (http://horaenterprises.com/pics/mics/).
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THANKS! That's a great idea.
Anybody else? All suggestions and caveats welcome!
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If you can get in for the soundcheck and can bring some good isolating headphones you're in good shape since you can listen to different mic setups and stand positions and choose what sounds best to you. I don't have any experience with your mics, but I'd try:
Your Jecklin disk with the omni's.
ORTF with the cards.
The A/B spaced techinque above.
Whatever else you have the time & inclination to try.
You don't have to record, just monitor and listen, move mics, change config, repeat, ect. until you settle on something that works for that situation and sounds good. Great learning opportunity.
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If you can get in for the soundcheck and can bring some good isolating headphones you're in good shape since you can listen to different mic setups and stand positions and choose what sounds best to you. I don't have any experience with your mics, but I'd try:
Your Jecklin disk with the omni's.
ORTF with the cards.
The A/B spaced techinque above.
Whatever else you have the time & inclination to try.
You don't have to record, just monitor and listen, move mics, change config, repeat, ect. until you settle on something that works for that situation and sounds good. Great learning opportunity.
Well yes... except the hitch being...
I'm the performer as well as the tapir ;)
Hence why I'm trying to amass some information before the fact since I will have to do it by trial and error since I CAN'T monitor myself!!! :)
The GOOD thing though is that this is a place where I teach once a week and thus I CAN get in to the space and play around with positioning and stuff at my leisure. And yep, a fabu learning opp BUT I need to get a good tape as well (if I perform well, it will make excellent fodder for my website and demo)
Thanks for the tips - keep 'em coming all!
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in your experimentation, try throwing the cards up on either side of the baffle, similar to the omni's, with the card caps pointed forward.
I'm doing two acoustic Mozart concerts this next weekend, and, I'll be starting with my baffled cards experiments of this season.
ahhhh,.... the local classical concert season 2006/2007 is finally underway.
lucky you!! itll take my shipped goods until January 7th to reach NC...wont be able to do any jobs until then. :-X I might just grab a 722 and my 426b....and throw it on the plane with me.
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I would throw a jecklin disc on them both....(omnis) and then about 5-10 feet behind the jdisc, throw the cardiods up on a stand as high as you can get them, pointing straigt up to capture the ambience. OR throw the jecklin in the "curve" of the piano and throw ONE of the cardiod mics on the singer...if you stereo mic her, you will get this :"wandering" effect..jimping from side to side.
Id be glad to mix them for you...
Hi all!
For once, I have a chance to openly tape a performance and the luxury of being in a venue I can access before the fact, check levels, play with mic placement etc. Woohoo! However, having only really stealthed myself to date, I'm pretty clueless regarding what to do with this lovely oppportunity....
Voice + piano (classical vocal recital).
I may run both of my current rigs for the performance if only to hear the differences. I have at my disposal (since <SOB> I can't afford DPAs before November)
CMC8 omnis
AT831 Cardioids
iRiver 120 running rockbox
Reactive preamp + JB3
1 4'6" tall mic stand
1 home made jecklin disk
I'll likely run hte CMC8s into the iRiver, and the 831s+pre into the JB3 (although no reason I could'nt do it the other way round - perhaps something to experiment with)
The venue is a smallish recital room with a rather live acoustic. IRL, the wet acoustic is quite vocally flattering (although isntrumentalists have complained it's too echo-y, and with a small ensemble it was deafening. New space - they're still tweaking the acoustic!). I'm reckoning I can site a stand in the aisle just in front of the first row, so maybe.... 12-14ft away from me and the piano. Performance area is NOT raised; room is all on one level.
So, suggestions on ideal placement, mic positioning to try and anything else y'all care to throw at me would be MIGHTY welcomed. Also, how does one accurately position stealth mics? When I've tried in the past, they just kinda flop around even when I clip them to stuff! And what would be a good setup for the AT831s (they're the SP minis)
In any case, all suggestions welcomed ESPECIALLY since i have 6 weeks where I can play around with this at my leisure!
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Thanks guys. I'm going to try to get in there tomorrow to play around a bit, so we'll see what I come up with.
I'm also seriously considering adding an R09 to the setup before this event. You may seem some gear turning up on the yard sale if that's the case!!!
I'll keep y'all posted (and no doubt be asking more questions before we're through!)
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So, I had a chance to get into the venue today - ran the iRiver w/CMC8s just sitting there while I did some singing to see what it sounds like.
It is WAY WAY WAY more live than I thought - it's like a freakin' echo chamber! Obviously, I need to get the mics as close as possible, but anything else I can do to minimise the excessive acoustic?
I just sold the 831 cards so both my rigs are now omnis so that's not going to help me acoustic-wise presumably. Oh well. I'll be running the iriver>CMC8 rig plus (yippee! new GEARRRRRR!! WOOHOOO!! Shipped today :) :) :) :)) the R09 using its built-in mics . Will I do better trying to get the mics up high, or running them roughly at sound level or...?
Thanks in advance for any further thoughts on this!
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well..youd want the mics lower for the same reason that you want to be closer... say about 5-6 feet in the air..no more. you should always have a pair of cardiods too....omnis wont cut it all the time.
So, I had a chance to get into the venue today - ran the iRiver w/CMC8s just sitting there while I did some singing to see what it sounds like.
It is WAY WAY WAY more live than I thought - it's like a freakin' echo chamber! Obviously, I need to get the mics as close as possible, but anything else I can do to minimise the excessive acoustic?
I just sold the 831 cards so both my rigs are now omnis so that's not going to help me acoustic-wise presumably. Oh well. I'll be running the iriver>CMC8 rig plus (yippee! new GEARRRRRR!! WOOHOOO!! Shipped today :) :) :) :)) the R09 using its built-in mics . Will I do better trying to get the mics up high, or running them roughly at sound level or...?
Thanks in advance for any further thoughts on this!
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well..youd want the mics lower for the same reason that you want to be closer... say about 5-6 feet in the air..no more. you should always have a pair of cardiods too....omnis wont cut it all the time.
Ha - well, as a gearslut in transtion, consider me "between cardioids"!! Once I can get the DPAs next spring, I'll probably add the card option for my CMC8s, which will hopefully cover bases in the future.. ;)
However, for this gig, gotta go with wot I got :)
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If just you're running the internal mics on the R-09, you'll get better results if you rig up a small jecklin-like or wedge-shaped baffle out of cardboard or something. Just takes a couple minutes and a pair of sissors to do something like this (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=70134.msg939775#msg939775).
Obvious probably, but the only practical way to increase the direct to reberberant ratio with your omni's is to get in closer.
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Gutbucket - tx guy. Yeah, i saw your amazing creations when you posted them (+t for sure!) and already have a couple of pieces of florists foam sitting here in wait ... I love your nerf ball! What a great idea :)
I have a homemade Jecklin I can use for the CMC8s/iriver rig. I should prolly try that out this week when I'm up there (the test I made last week was without anything, really, just the mics plonked down on a table about 15 ft out; I'm going to see what I can rig up a bit closer next time.)
Thanks again!
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Gutbucket - tx guy. Yeah, i saw your amazing creations when you posted them (+t for sure!) and already have a couple of pieces of florists foam sitting here in wait ... I love your nerf ball! What a great idea :)
I have a homemade Jecklin I can use for the CMC8s/iriver rig. I should prolly try that out this week when I'm up there (the test I made last week was without anything, really, just the mics plonked down on a table about 15 ft out; I'm going to see what I can rig up a bit closer next time.)
Thanks again!
The little green Nerf ball is better than nothing and looks cooler, but is really too small to be very effective. A piece of cardboard works better. I tested it and carry the cardbard baffle in my bag, but I never really use the internal mics.
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I was planning on using a styrofoam disk - based on your experiments so far, how do you think that will work? I happen to have one here already and figured it would be easy to shape (as you did with the Nerf ball), would emulate a Jdisk and would be a little sturdier than cardboard....
http://www.thecraftplace.com/store/images/products/disc_D61W.jpg
The question, presumably, is how big a disk to use given that the internal mics are set pretty close.
Btw, I'll only be using the internal mics for the time being. I'm getting this unit in anticipation of my spring upgrade to 4060s.....
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Sorry it's taken me a while to respond, I've been out of town..
The baffle doesn't really need to be very strudy. If you're placing the recorder on the floor or a table, the baffle just sits on top of it. I though about attaching it to a base plate so the recorder slips in a little slot at the base of the baffle and the baffle is more secure from being knocked or blowing over. I made the cardboard one in the form of a wedge for a couple reasons: 1) it allows you to view the display from behind or above while using a large enough baffle to be effective, where a true Jecklin-disk would cover the display. 2) The internal capsules are oriented 120 degrees apart and the angle of the wedge approximates this angle. 3) a Jecklin-disk needs a sound absorbant surface to eliminate reflections of the disk's surface which could cause comb filtering. By placing the baffle surface in the same plane as the capsule diaphram (like a boundry mic), multiple paths to the capsule should be eliminated which takes care of the potential comb filtering problem with out the need for a thick absorbant surface. Actually, to take advantage of the boundry effect, the baffle sould be hard and reflective (like the technique of using a pair of PZM mics near the leading edge of two hinged pieces plexiglass). I'm not really trying to use the boundry effect here, but not having to put absorbant or fuzzy material on the baffle faces allows them to be pushed outwards as much as possible, which with the capsules spaced so close together to begin with, allows a little more room for viewing the display. The styrafoam disk would probably work fine, but you couldn't monitor levels or view the display.
I love the 4060's, and use them all the time now, which is why I haven't used the internals much.
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The question, presumably, is how big a disk to use given that the internal mics are set pretty close.
Seems I neglected your actual question... Optimal size? I don't really know, Moke's 6" mini J-disk (or is it a J-Square? ;)) reportedly to works well with his 4060's. That's also about the size of my cardbard wedge. As the baffle gets larger, the frequency where the increased directionality provided by the baffle starts to take effect becomes lower. IMO, the effect is most important at higher frequencies and becomes somewhat less imortant as the freqency drops, so a larger baffle may technically be better, but perhaps not significantly so in this case.
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whoa, i was editing this and saw the thread started Oct 5. maybe Diva will let us know how it went. I'll post this anyway because it is fall recital season and any taper could get asked to tape a recital by a friend or foe.
I attended a Senior recital for a Mezzo Soprano/flutist just a few days ago. The hall seated about 100 and should have been a great room. NO parallel walls, grid ceiling, carpeted floor. However it was still too live. There was a guy recording the recital with about three grand worth of AKG LD mics.and a KORG digital console???? I hope he is able to get a good mix but I doubt it. The problem for him was the piano! I checked the brand and model after the recital and I already forgot. This was a full concert grand and even though the accompianist was gentle the piano sound was BIG!!!. I understood every syllable and phrase the singer uttered but then the human mind is a miraculous filter. I realized from the opening bars that since the vocalist was standing right by the piano and the mics were all equidistant from both the instument and the vocal that it would be nearly impossible to make the singer sound front and center on the tape. My feelings? If I ever record one of these I will set the mics close to the singer and do my best to get the singer to stand in front of the piano by a couple of feet, to the side a couple of feet or SOMETHING. Believe me, in that venue you could have had the mics under the seats on the back row and the piano would have sounded ten feet wide. Giant piano, normal to moderate voice is a challenge. The situation would tempt you to close mic the piano and the vocalist separately; but that can become a nightmare on the mix. Unless you have hours (days) or lots of experience micing pianos, especialy grands you can end up with crap. If your recital hall is like this just do everything you can to have the mics much closer to the voice than the instrument. Not super close or you will have wacky imaging with every head movement of the vocalist. But believe me a real Concert Grand in a small hall will dominate all but the biggest voice and sometimes even a big voice will be singing softly.
Have fun.
Jeff