Topic: Newbie needs help

[brad.bartels]

OK, I'm a newbie and I need some help with some things:

Phantom 48V power - some recorders supply phantom 48V power - does this eliminate the need for battery boxes for most common condenser microphones (Schoeps, DPA, Sound Professional, etc. that use 48V power)? If you are using a pre-amp, do some / most / all of them pass 48V DC from the recorder to the mics (with the pre-amp assumed to be in-line between your recording device and the mics)?

Microphone stands - any recommendations? I'm lookin for something that extends to at least 8', but that folds into something as compact as possible.

Recording in general - what's the difference between the "line-in" and  "mic-in" on most recorders? If using external microphones, do folks usually record to "line-in" or "mic-in"? How about if your'e lucky enough to get a SDB patch - line-in?

What cables are you likely to need if you do get an opportunity for a SBD patch (thinking I'll have a Edirol R-09 HR, but that's up for debate right now)?

Pre-amp - how do you know if you need to use a pre-amp for a given recording environment? Levels without one or something else? Do you only need a pre-amp if the levels are pretty low or you are far away from the source? Do most folks use a pre-amp all the time and just set it to unity (or lowest) gain when it's not needed? I'm thinking you should set your levels in the recorder and only mess with them on the pre-amp if necessary since there is likely more noise generated in the pre-amp - thoughts on this (in other words, leave the gain of the pre-amp as low as possible and the gain on your recorder as high as possible for the best results)?

Do all / some / none of the pre-amps availalbe supply 48V phantom power for microphones (hopefully eliminating the need for a battery box in this application)? Do all pre-amps have variable gain? Seems that would be important. How about an adjustable bass roll-off - again, seems like an important feature? And how about size - I can see needing to do low-profile or stealth recordings - are there small pre-amps out there that will work with most microphone set-ups? Looking for input / recommendations on a pre-amp, probably for use with Schoeps mics and the R-09 HR recorder.

Battery box to power mics - assuming you need a battery box for powering you mics, is it generally recommended to use something from the mic manufacturer or are there better options available? I'd be looking for something as small as possible, in case of the need for stealth recording and ease of portability.

Thanks for any input on any of the above subjects. I've read through a ton of the threads here and it's been extremely helpful.

[sunjan]

Phantom 48V power - some recorders supply phantom 48V power - does this eliminate the need for battery boxes for most common condenser microphones (Schoeps, DPA, Sound Professional, etc. that use 48V power)?

Yes!

If you are using a pre-amp, do some / most / all of them pass 48V DC from the recorder to the mics (with the pre-amp assumed to be in-line between your recording device and the mics)?

You'll have to read the specs. Some preamps feature P48, others not.

Microphone stands - any recommendations? I'm lookin for something that extends to at least 8', but that folds into something as compact as possible.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,123180.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,121998.msg1630319.html#msg1630319
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,122248.0.html

Recording in general - what's the difference between the "line-in" and  "mic-in" on most recorders? If using external microphones, do folks usually record to "line-in" or "mic-in"?

In general: line-in. Again, you have to read up on each recorder. Some have high quality built-in mic preamps (Sony Hi-MD comes to mind) but most don't. For stealth, some of us tend to compromise and run mic-in when we don't want to carry external boxes, but line-in when you can bring in more gear.

How about if your'e lucky enough to get a SDB patch - line-in?

Yes.

What cables are you likely to need if you do get an opportunity for a SBD patch (thinking I'll have a Edirol R-09 HR, but that's up for debate right now)?

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,14253.0.html

Pre-amp - how do you know if you need to use a pre-amp for a given recording environment? Levels without one or something else? Do you only need a pre-amp if the levels are pretty low or you are far away from the source? Do most folks use a pre-amp all the time and just set it to unity (or lowest) gain when it's not needed?

How do we know when to use a preamp? Every piece of gear has it's own characteristic. Some mics put out a hot signal, some don't. When combining your rig, check what other tapers here use. If most pair up mic X with preamp Y, it's probably because they're a good combo.

I'm thinking you should set your levels in the recorder and only mess with them on the pre-amp if necessary since there is likely more noise generated in the pre-amp - thoughts on this (in other words, leave the gain of the pre-amp as low as possible and the gain on your recorder as high as possible for the best results)?

Nope. Normally it's the other way around. Amplify the signal as early in the chain as possible. The reason for carrying an external pre is because it's cleaner than the built-in pre of the recorder.

Do all / some / none of the pre-amps availalbe supply 48V phantom power for microphones (hopefully eliminating the need for a battery box in this application)? Do all pre-amps have variable gain? Seems that would be important. How about an adjustable bass roll-off - again, seems like an important feature?

Some do, some don't. Again, read the specs.
Depending on your rig, venue and type of music, bass rolloff is often not necessary. If you have an issue with bass, it can usually be equalized in post.

And how about size - I can see needing to do low-profile or stealth recordings - are there small pre-amps out there that will work with most microphone set-ups? Looking for input / recommendations on a pre-amp, probably for use with Schoeps mics and the R-09 HR recorder.

Plenty of choice these days. CA-9100, Naiant Littlebox, Mixpre, Fivefish (TBC). I leave the Schoeps recommendations to the high end guys, but AFAIK the Nbox is what most here use.

Battery box to power mics - assuming you need a battery box for powering you mics, is it generally recommended to use something from the mic manufacturer or are there better options available? I'd be looking for something as small as possible, in case of the need for stealth recording and ease of portability.

Not necessarily. It all depends which mics you're going to power. Talk to Chris Church about bboxes, either stock or custom.

[brad.bartels]

Thanks sunjan for your help and taking the time to provide answers to my questions. Very helpful and I appreciate it greatly.

[su6oxone]

I would recommend Bogen light stands, they are somewhat pricey (~$60-70 for a 11' stand) but they are great quality, light, and have a small footprint.  Get them at B&H photo.

Re: SBD patches, here is a post I made that lists and shows all the adaptors/cables that you will ever need to connect to a SBD (which can be via XLR male/female, 1/4" female monox2/stereox1, or RCA male/female).

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,121657.0.html

Essentially these will cover all the bases:



1. Dual RCA female to 1/8" stereo male cable (Monoprice)
2. (2) RCA female to RCA female adapters (Monoprice)
3. (2) XLR female to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
4. (2) XLR male to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
5. (2) 1/4" mono male to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
6. (1) 1/4" stereo male to dual RCA female adapter (Hosa)
7. (1) 1/8" stereo male to 1/8" stereo male cable (in case I need to patch out of a line-out jack)

[stevetoney]

A couple of comments. 

Regarding your question about setting levels on the pre-amp versus setting levels on the recorder, think of it this way...which device passes a signal with higher quality?  The obvious answer is that the pre-amp is designed specifically for one purpose in mind (signal amplification) while the recorder typically does mulitple functions (preamp, A>D, recording).  So, the pre-amp is usually gonna provide higher quality signal processing (lower noise) and convential wisdom is that it should be used to provide your higher gain stage than the recorder.  Most people will identify the unity gain setting on their recorder and make sure they never go over that level, then do all of their level setting with the pre-amp.  For example, I have an Edirol R-09HR and I keep the level on that like around 30 or 35 because I recall reading that unity is I think in the mid-40's or so.

Regarding the light stand, someone suggested stands with small footprints.  I enjoy a small footprint as much as the next guy, but if you're gonna be recording outside, a larger footprint can be handy when the wind picks up and your stand starts swaying in the wind, especially if you can't stake your stand down.

[robertitrujillo]

If i can bump an aging thread..

I have two condenser mics that i use with a preamp. What you're saying makes sense to me and it's what i normally would do, but with the setup i use i can't, mabye it's the way i'm using it.

With the preamp levels set at their absolute minimum, i get no movement on the preamp meters as expected. But if i turn the levels up even a tiny bit, i get levels that are too high to use (pegging the meters on the preamp).

I'm using the condensers right up against the stage (pretty loud music), so i take it condensers are generally too sensitive, is it damaging the mic element, or if not, is there a way to bring the level down before the preamp?

It seems silly to use a preamp if it really doesn't need to be amplified, but i need the phantom and the connector conversion..

[DaveG73]

If i can bump an aging thread..

I have two condenser mics that i use with a preamp. What you're saying makes sense to me and it's what i normally would do, but with the setup i use i can't, mabye it's the way i'm using it.

With the preamp levels set at their absolute minimum, i get no movement on the preamp meters as expected. But if i turn the levels up even a tiny bit, i get levels that are too high to use (pegging the meters on the preamp).

I'm using the condensers right up against the stage (pretty loud music), so i take it condensers are generally too sensitive, is it damaging the mic element, or if not, is there a way to bring the level down before the preamp?

It seems silly to use a preamp if it really doesn't need to be amplified, but i need the phantom and the connector conversion..

I am sure you will find help here, but without knowing what gear you are using, it is impossible for anyone to assist you.

Dave.

[robertitrujillo]

Forgot, I'm using two MXL 990 condensers (cheap while i'm learning, but i actually love the sound after post..) on spiders plugged into an maudio DMP3 preamp that goes into a tascam DR-1 recorder. I use the DR-1 dry- i don't use any of the effects or bells and whistles, just a straight recording. I use xlr to go from mics to the preamp and two 1/4" plugs from the preamp out to a 1/8" adapter that goes to the recorder. The mics don't have any switches or modes for phase, or lo-freq damping, but the preamp does have phantom, hi/low gain, 75khz low cut and the regular gain knob.

I have it set with the gain switch on low, low cut off. The meters on the preamp read 0 when the gain KNOB is set to minimum. Turning the gain knob up even a tiny bit will almost peg the meters. I had used another condenser/preamp combo before that worked flawlessly, so i don't know if it's just these mics are too sensitive, or mabye the preamp just isn't designed to have alot of variance at the minimal gain ranges i need. Someone mentioned i might need an attenuator but why have a preamp in that case??!

Is it possible that the SPLs from the loud music can damage the mics? Mabye that's where the problem is coming from..

[Brian E.]

I would recommend Bogen light stands, they are somewhat pricey (~$60-70 for a 11' stand) but they are great quality, light, and have a small footprint.  Get them at B&H photo.

Re: SBD patches, here is a post I made that lists and shows all the adaptors/cables that you will ever need to connect to a SBD (which can be via XLR male/female, 1/4" female monox2/stereox1, or RCA male/female).

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,121657.0.html

Essentially these will cover all the bases:



1. Dual RCA female to 1/8" stereo male cable (Monoprice)
2. (2) RCA female to RCA female adapters (Monoprice)
3. (2) XLR female to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
4. (2) XLR male to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
5. (2) 1/4" mono male to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
6. (1) 1/4" stereo male to dual RCA female adapter (Hosa)
7. (1) 1/8" stereo male to 1/8" stereo male cable (in case I need to patch out of a line-out jack)

Great post, I was looking for a definitive answer like that.  Thanks!

[jlykos]

Forgot, I'm using two MXL 990 condensers (cheap while i'm learning, but i actually love the sound after post..) on spiders plugged into an maudio DMP3 preamp that goes into a tascam DR-1 recorder. I use the DR-1 dry- i don't use any of the effects or bells and whistles, just a straight recording. I use xlr to go from mics to the preamp and two 1/4" plugs from the preamp out to a 1/8" adapter that goes to the recorder. The mics don't have any switches or modes for phase, or lo-freq damping, but the preamp does have phantom, hi/low gain, 75khz low cut and the regular gain knob.

I have it set with the gain switch on low, low cut off. The meters on the preamp read 0 when the gain KNOB is set to minimum. Turning the gain knob up even a tiny bit will almost peg the meters. I had used another condenser/preamp combo before that worked flawlessly, so i don't know if it's just these mics are too sensitive, or mabye the preamp just isn't designed to have alot of variance at the minimal gain ranges i need. Someone mentioned i might need an attenuator but why have a preamp in that case??!

Is it possible that the SPLs from the loud music can damage the mics? Mabye that's where the problem is coming from..

Are you running line-in or mic-in?  I am not familiar with any of this equipment, but if you use a preamplifier, be sure to connect it to the DR-1 at the line-in jack.  Also set the preamplifier to low-gain if you intend to tape rock concerts.  I have never heard of high SPLs damaging microphones.

[sunjan]

an maudio DMP3 preamp that goes into a tascam DR-1 recorder.

Hey Rob, are you using this pre in the field, or are we talking about a wall-powered setup? Since it takes AC only, if you use it with a cheap DC>AC inverter in the field, I can imagine that it would cause issues:

http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/media_hqpics/DMP3-back%5Bsl%5D.jpg

On a side note, you should look into your cabling. I read that the DMP3 supports balanced line out, provided you use 1/4" TRS plugs going out. With the right Y-cable you might be able to keep a balanced signal to the 1/8" line-in jack on the DR-1.

[robertitrujillo]

Just got back to town from a job..

Yes, i'm using the balanced 1/4" outs (see the pic sunjam put up (thanks)). I go from that to a cable that converts to 1/8" stereo and plug that into the line in on the recorder. Thanks for that on SPLs, i was afraid i might be doing some damage.

Sunjam, yeah, in the field. It's got a walwart for power. I plug that wherever i can find power, i've heard of preamps generating noise when on ac power, ac power is a premium on stage it seems, but i try to go after power strips if their available, since there's a chance they have some filtering.. But could that cause the sound to be too loud? Problems i've seen before were the usual 60 cycle hum or picking up something from another device on the same circuit..

Thanks for the tip about the balanced lines. It's not something i've given much thought to because i record mostly loud rock shows and (as far as i know) any noise would be drowned out by the music. But if it's possible to run balanced, that's going to help, i noticed some noise in quieter parts, possibly from using unbalanced lines. Not sure, but i think that any adapters that i use on the way from one device to the next also have to be balanced?

Here's one video that i shot, the audio came out ok, but there was no board audio to mix with the ambient and the place didn't have the best acoustics.. I hear some noise in different parts, there were probably things i could have done better in post..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvVNutG2AeM

Thanks again,

Rob T.

[chrisnubar]

Good Video! Needs some chicks though..
I met your namesake when he was in Suicidal, he's cool.

[dean]

Regarding the light stand, someone suggested stands with small footprints.  I enjoy a small footprint as much as the next guy, but if you're gonna be recording outside, a larger footprint can be handy when the wind picks up and your stand starts swaying in the wind, especially if you can't stake your stand down.

In addition, when recording outdoors it's extremely helpful to have tent stakes in your gear bag.  They'll go a long way to keeping your stand up in a sizable wind and they add very little weight to the bag.  My stand has a super wide footprint but I still stake it down most of the time I'm running outdoors.  They can help with wookies running over the stand, too.