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Author Topic: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)  (Read 7187 times)

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Offline HarpDoc

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I'm familiar with the various cardioid microphone placement options. My understanding is that they are generally designed for being used in the "ideal" distance from the stage (the triangle). When recording with cards (in this case, CA-11s), I'd like some help with how to compensate for having to set up too close or too far from the ideal spot. For instance, if I'm starting with a DIN setup, if I have to move farther back or forward from the best spot, how would I change the angle or spacing of the mics in order to preserve a realistic stereo image?

I know there's a LOT of info out there (and I've read a lot of it), but I'm new to stereo recording with cards and would appreciate any help.

Thanks!

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Offline HarpDoc

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 05:08:21 PM »
I have read that article. Short of building one of those nifty sighting devices, I don't see where the article addresses my question. Let me again state it. The realities of recording sometimes force us to locate in a less-than-ideal place (too close or too far). Should you reduce or increase microphone angle to compensate, or should you reduce or increase spacing to compensate? I'd just like to hear what has worked for some tapers who are experienced using cards.

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 06:18:04 PM »
Quote
The realities of recording sometimes force us to locate in a less-than-ideal place (too close or too far). Should you reduce or increase microphone angle to compensate, or should you reduce or increase spacing to compensate?

Distance from the stage is only one very small variable in chosing a microphone configuration.  There is no simple answer to address that.  If you were using omni directional microphones I could give you a simple answer of "As you move further from the source, increase the distance between microphones."

The stereophonic recording technique addresses almost all of the variables in field recording, not just distance. 

Typically, as you move further from the source the Stereophonic Recording Angle will decrease.  There is not a better guideline than the Stereophonic Zoom technique in addressing the situations you describe.  You don't need to build a sextant to understand and implement the concepts within the article.  You just need to understand the concept and follow it.  Perhaps you might refer to the graph to make sure you are within the recomended reverberationa and angular distrotion tolerances.

There is no ideal simple answer becasue the relationship between angle/distance of a microphone has to do with the SRA, which is not just specific to distance.
I'll give you a really simple answer, but I don't thing the SZ is all that complicated:

As you move further from the sound source you should space the microphones further apart.  Angle should also be slightly increased as you move the mics apart.  Use 17cm and 90degrees separation in a ideal location.  If you move further back increase the spaceing and angle slightly.  If you move closer move the mics closer and reduce the angle.

My simple answer came right from the stereophonic zoom concept, that on first inspection you didn't feel addressed your question.  If you read the article again I think you can find the answers you are looking for...
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Offline HarpDoc

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 07:24:21 PM »
Thanks Fred. Just to give a little context, I'll be trying my CA cards for the first time this Saturday to record my band. It's in a space I've never been to and I have a limited amount of time to set up the PA, my amp, etc.  Therefore, I have even less time to set up microphones to record the band.

Any further "real world" advice (especially anyone who has CA cards)?

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 07:53:34 PM »
My previous post is bunk.  The best answer to your question is:

"Experiment and have fun!"  :)

T+


good luck!

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Offline bluntforcetrauma

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 07:59:36 PM »
If you are taping your band, run a cable to the board?

But if you want to use the mics, go to the place in the room and where does it sound best to your ears? then ORTF--if you want to just play it safe.

Offline Roger Gustavsson

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 01:38:45 AM »
A directional microphone have a distance dependent frequency response. The nice frequency plots that can be seen in the documents are often far from true. One of the few manufactors to show the frequency plot för various pickup distances are DPA.

Stealthing can be a bit different to normal recording. You are perhaps located in the far field where the tonal balance is different (less high frequency and more capture of the hall). The prefered place of listening is not the where you place your microphones, you need to be closer to the stage for recording.

Roger

Offline DSatz

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2008, 07:23:29 AM »
HarpDoc, three things if I may. One is that yes, there's usually a range of plausible mike placements. But each one still creates a different sonic impression, and there's a limit (even if it has vague and stretchy boundaries) to the placements where you can get satisfactory sound according to any given set of criteria.

"Too close" and "too far" really exist, in other words, just as "too far to the left" and "too far to the right" exist. Trying your best is honorable, but don't expect there to be a satisfactory technical way to compensate for any and all bad recording conditions. Some days you get the bear; some days the bear gets you. Some problems can be solved with extra effort, persistence and sneakiness. Others are best solved by giving up and walking away; whether you choose to mutter under your breath as you do so is a matter of personal style.

As a second thought, or maybe it's a further part of the first thought: The closer you get your microphones to a set of sound sources, the more they tend to spotlight the players or singers closest to them--the less of an equal overall balance you will pick up. Also the more distant sound sources are picked up with more reverberance while the closer ones are picked up "dry." I really need a napkin so that I can make a drawing ... it's the only authentic medium for such discussions.

OK, see below. The "X" is the position of your microphones. Note that in the first drawing (with a reasonable miking distance), the path lengths "a" through "e" are roughly equal. Notice that in the second drawing, with the mikes in close, the path lengths "f" through "j" are extremely unequal. That's an unavoidable side effect of closer miking. At a certain point you lose the overall perspective, your mikes start to act like spot mikes, and the recording starts to sound as if you were listening to two selected tracks from a multi-track recording.

Stereo recording with two microphones--especially a coincident or closely-spaced pair--is based on the premise that there's a good balance of sound at the miking position. In situations where that premise isn't true, the two-mike recording approach becomes questionable and even Superman wouldn't be able to change that, so don't blame yourself.

The last thing is that many people, when they talk about "increasing the microphone angle," mean "spread their microphones farther apart." But increasing the angle between two microphones narrows the angle that you can pick up with them. It could be seen as a kind of paradox, or you could say that when people are talking about coincident or near-coincident setups, it is just misleading and wrong to think of aiming the individual microphones at anything, because that's really not how this type of stereo recording works.

It's the common area between the two microphones that makes the stereo recording--the stereo effect works because both mikes pick up all the direct sound sources, but they do so in differing proportions (and/or with different sound arrival times). It's essential that all direct sound reach both microphones, or the sound source will seem to be in one or the other of the loudspeakers, which spoils the effect. Of course it's also important for the sound sources on each side of center to be more prominent (in amplitude or arrival time or both) in the signal from their respective microphone.

Quite possibly you're aware of everything I just said. If so, my apologies for spouting, but I'm sure there are some people here who didn't realize one or the other thing.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 12:11:44 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2008, 09:52:32 AM »
Another terrific post from DSatz.  Love the napkin!
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Offline HarpDoc

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 12:09:32 PM »
DSats, thanks for yet another wonderful explanation. You are the king of the napkin! ;D

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 09:38:50 AM »
You don't need to build a sextant to understand and implement the concepts within the article...

I'll only add that if you do want to estimate angles quickly you can use the 'back yard astromomer method'.  A clinched fist held at arms length covers approximately 10 degrees.  Practice it a few times and you can get very close.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 09:48:05 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 09:45:42 AM »
Quote
...You don't need to build a sextant to understand and implement the concepts within the article...

I'll only add that if you do want to estimate angles quickly you can use the 'back yard astromomer method'.  A clinched fist held at arms length covers approximately 10 degrees.  Practice it a few times and you can get very close.

Holy shit!  That works great!  T+ for saving me some space in my gear bag.  My DIY sextant is bulky!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Compensating for being too close or too far from stage (cardioid)
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 09:50:17 AM »
Holy shit!  That works great!  T+ for saving me some space in my gear bag.  My DIY sextant is bulky!

I was scheming on ways to build a tiny one until I heard about that, now I've no reason to bother.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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