Topic: Recorded for the first time in 7 years... terrible results... input needed plz

[su6oxone]

Dear comrades, I just taped my first show in 7 years tonight (Eve 7 near Baltimore, MD) using my new Edirol R-09, my (seven year old) AT853 mics, and an old sound pro battery box (also seven years old, not using bass roll off).  It's a small venue (few hundred capacity I would guess) shaped like a rectangle with two huge stacks on either side of the stage.  HUGE BASS coming out during all sets.  I had years ago used my Sharp MD recorder to tape U2, black crowes, pharcyde, and some other shows, using the same mics and battery box (with no bass roll off), and never had a problem with bass. 

At this show, the bass was heavy, but I was shocked at how distorted it sounded when I played it back at home.  Previous shows in 2001 were fine, bass heavy but not distorted.  Now, I'm wondering if the battery pack has been damaged by battery leakage due to leaving the same 9V battery inside connected for 7 years!  The reason I wonder this is because I noticed that when the band started playing, at usual loud rock concert levels, I had to keep the input level at 4 to keep from clipping even.  I was afraid that going lower would cause attenuation of the signal but maybe that was the mistake (levels were between -6 and 0 most of the time but no clipping light). 

I was surprised because at other loud shows with my MD recorder I did not have to set the levels so low to avoid clipping.  Would this indicate a malfunctioning battery box?  Anyway, I posted a similar post on the computer section (for help on how to master/edit the resulting audio files) in case anyone has any ideas or suggestions.  Thanks for reading and for any suggestions! 

http://www.mediafire.com/?4ostznmhjgk

[Nick's Picks]

did you run "mic in" ?
try line in.

[Belexes]

Fresh battery, line-in, and the 853's have been known to distort at high SPL's.

[KLowe]

what they said.....

also record at 24 bit and set your levels conservatively.  Add gain in post.

[su6oxone]

Thank you guys for your input.  I did use the line-in, used a new 9V battery, and had the input only at 4.  Perhaps I should set the input at 2 or 3?  Definitely should have used bass roll-off I guess, but which frequencies (e.g. how much)?  What was unexpected was that I never had this kind of severe bass distortion when recording loud rock concerts in the past with the same gear (except a Sharp MD recorder instead of R-09). 

edit: +T for the help guys

[Belexes]

I'd rule out the R-09.  I doubt that was the problem, but I wish I could help more as to what it was.

[datbrad]

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

[su6oxone]

Thanks for the input, +T, that makes a lot of sense.  Do you think the Church CA-11 mics would do better with high SPL than the AT853s (unmodded)?  Thanks.

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

[youngsbest]

Hi.  Having listened to your sample, the recorder is overlaoding. I don't think it's anything do do with bass, there is a problem somewhere else.  I have a similar setup to you, and running 853>battery box > line in you should see a level of around 20 (depending on how load the PA is, of course) to peak at about -6db on the Edirol. 

The fact that you were at rec level 4 means there is a problem. You are not running through an external pre-amp so a level of 4 is completely wrong. So it's either mics, battery box or the recorder at fault.

I suggest you try to isolate what is going wrong by a process of elimination.

Plug your mics into the mic in input of the R09 - making sure that plug in power is enabled - and hold the mics up to the speaker of your hifi, at a fairly loud volume, then adjust the level untill you peak at -6db. Make sure the R09 settings are at low mic gain, AGC and low cut off. Now plug the mics into the battery box, and go mic in from the bb, and see what level you need to peak  at - 6bd.

In the first case you should need an input level of 20 (+ or - 5) to get a decent level, and a similar level when you introduce the battery box.  If the levels are wildey different, then there is a problem with the battery box.

Also try mics>battery box> line in and see what input level you need to set.

The 853s can distort at very high sound levels, but as you have not had this problem using mini-disc, it seems like you may have a battery box problem.



Now

[Dede2002]

Thanks for the input, +T, that makes a lot of sense.  Do you think the Church CA-11 mics would do better with high SPL than the AT853s (unmodded)?  Thanks.

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

High SPL? Try Microphone Madness HLSC-1 . Sounds great and you can tape a jet engine with them. It's a high SPL beast.

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the input, +T, that makes a lot of sense.  Do you think the Church CA-11 mics would do better with high SPL than the AT853s (unmodded)?  Thanks.

Actually, the R09 may be the issue, but not due to any problems or weaknesses of that unit. The R09, like all uncompressed wave recorders, is far more sensitive to the audible spectrum than any standard MD can capture. I expect that some of the bass distortion you are hearing was being produced by the mics before, only the Sharp MD (I have one myself) does not have the ability to capture the very low end where the distortion resides and you simply were lucky for this. I can tell you as many on this forum can attest that it is very common to put a new and more advanced recorder behind an existing mic/pre setup only to have wrinkles and warts from the mics come out to the front and make one think, have my mics gone bad? I know tapers that have run budget mics put a higer end preamp/AD into the mix, only to be forced to step up to much more expensive mics. It's a common problem. Since it sounds like you are stealthing, I would suggest you look into the Church Audio line of mics and preamps. They are reasonably priced, well built, and will outperform your current mics using an R09. Also, as a side note, never leave akaline batteries in any equipment for long term storage, as these batteries can decay and leak and will cause irreversable damage to the components inside.

There is nothing wrong with the mics you have. You just need to do my mod to them. If you need help figuring out how to do it let me know or if your not good with a soldering iron I can do it for you for $25.00 + return shipping.

Chris

[su6oxone]

Hi.  Having listened to your sample, the recorder is overloading. I don't think it's anything do do with bass, there is a problem somewhere else.  I have a similar setup to you, and running 853>battery box > line in you should see a level of around 20 (depending on how load the PA is, of course) to peak at about -6db on the Edirol. 

The fact that you were at rec level 4 means there is a problem. You are not running through an external pre-amp so a level of 4 is completely wrong. So it's either mics, battery box or the recorder at fault.

I suggest you try to isolate what is going wrong by a process of elimination.

Plug your mics into the mic in input of the R09 - making sure that plug in power is enabled - and hold the mics up to the speaker of your hifi, at a fairly loud volume, then adjust the level untill you peak at -6db. Make sure the R09 settings are at low mic gain, AGC and low cut off. Now plug the mics into the battery box, and go mic in from the bb, and see what level you need to peak  at - 6bd.

In the first case you should need an input level of 20 (+ or - 5) to get a decent level, and a similar level when you introduce the battery box.  If the levels are wildey different, then there is a problem with the battery box.

Also try mics>battery box> line in and see what input level you need to set.

The 853s can distort at very high sound levels, but as you have not had this problem using mini-disc, it seems like you may have a battery box problem.

Thanks a lot (+T) for your careful analysis.  I was thinking also that the battery box (that had a 9V battery connected for 7 years) might be the source of the problem, as I don't remember having to set the input level so low when using my Sharp MD recorder to record loud rock concerts (using line-in).  I'll definitely give you suggestion to determine if the battery box is the problem when I get home tomorrow, but if testing the input levels when only changing the use of battery box or not, wouldn't the levels be lower with the battery box being used since they're being powered now?  Thx again!

[su6oxone]

Dede2002:
Thx for the tip, those mics look pretty good! 

Church-Audio:
Chris, thx for the suggestion.  I think I may just opt for your CA-11's instead with the 9100 promo.  I'll email you today probably with request for info on how to complete transaction. 

Thx everyone.. +T

[Dede2002]

Dede2002:
Thx for the tip, those mics look pretty good! 

Church-Audio:
Chris, thx for the suggestion.  I think I may just opt for your CA-11's instead with the 9100 promo.  I'll email you today probably with request for info on how to complete transaction. 

Thx everyone.. +T

No problem
+T and enjoy your new gear.

[nameloc01]

You should be running those 3wire 853s with a 3wire power supply, not a soundpros 2wire BB. That is paramount. If you don't, they will clip at high spls, if you do what I said, they will not clip. Also,with loud shows, run >line in , not >mic in.