Topic: Long time dat taper finds himself a newby these days... Questions...

[Corey321]

Hi,

I was a pretty serious dat taper for over 10 years but completely stopped for over 2 years. Just had other things to do with my free time. Also strangely stopped shortly after upgrading to Schoeps mics and a nbox, I always stealth. I finally broke out the dat and got a great REM master so I am looking to get back into things somewhat. Anyway I am looking to stop using the dat and get a new recorder but searching around here I feel like a antique. Before I stopped I never traded anything on line and I did not even make cd's on my computer! How to do that is a question for another day but here is what I have been wondering... there are no stupid questions right???

-The Editrol r-09HR seems the best for me after all the reading here. Only thing is I really like the digital input on the MicroTrack II as this would be a easy way to get my dat masters into my computer? But then there are all the problems I read about here about the microtrack?!?

-I am really freaked about not keeping the actual master I record. That is making a cd master then recording over the actual master. I assume nobody keeps the master CF cards? Could never listen to everything so if there was a problem making a cd master the actual master is gone forever.

-Recording at 24/96 sounds cool but concerned reading about problems that can happen for no particular reason? Assuming you do that how would you have a master? If you put it on cd it is down to 44.1. Do you put in on a DVD? How much can fit there?

Thanks for any input you may have!
Corey

[page]

+T for asking, some people dont and suffer instead.

If you tape a show on solid state, and then when you get home, if you burn the wav (or whatever format it comes in) files to a DVD as a regular data dvd (not video or dvd audio), then thats "your master". If you use flac (google it, we here at TS recommend it), then you might be able to fit 2 or 3 shows on a dvd. I have stuff I've done which never went to CD or anything else that I have flac'ed on a hard drive or on DVDs stuck around. If anything, with the added redundancy of having that file (which you havn't downsampled or processed in any way) stuck in multiple spots, you are safer in case anything does happen. So you are "keeping a master", its just not intrinsically linked to a physical medium anymore (like DAT was). You don't *have* to do any tracking or burning to CDs or anything else if you dont *want* to. It's just that the option to do so is much easier now then it was when we all used physical mediums.

An average 2 set show (say of Phish or WSP) takes about 1 gigabyte after using flac. DVDs hold just over 4gb, so you get approximately 4 shows per DVD. Without using flac and keeping things in wav's, you might get 2.5 shows per DVD.

[morst]

-I am really freaked about not keeping the actual master I record.

You and me both, bro!! I burn at least two DVD-R's of each of my solid state recordings, AND I keep them on a hard drive too. Personally, I compress to FLAC format for the archives, but if you don't mind the extra space requirements, you could archive the original WAV files. If you do that, do yourself a favor, and create an MD5 checksum for each original WAV so you can verify that the backups are exact copies later. (on the mac I use Scott Brown's handy xACT software, for PC I think you can use a number of options, FLAC is a good one to start with, though some people use something called "trader's little helper" but I can't stand that one, cause it creates non-standard checksum files which cause xACT to give me an error!)

+t for asking (that's a GDTS ticket, if you haven't figured that out yet!!)

[sunjan]

-The Editrol r-09HR seems the best for me after all the reading here. Only thing is I really like the digital input on the MicroTrack II as this would be a easy way to get my dat masters into my computer? But then there are all the problems I read about here about the microtrack?!?

Hi Corey,

For DAT transfers, I'd much rather pick up a proper soundcard for your PC than going the MT II way. Esp. if your DAT deck is oldish and not 100% reliable, you don't want more uncertain hardware in the chain. From what I've read, with the right soundcard and sound editing software, you can lock the clock frequency to avoid drifting. But I'm not a DAT guy, so others here can tell you this in much more accurate terms.

R09-HR should be just fine for your needs! If you intend to hold on to your Schoeps and nbox, others here can also tell you how they match the R09-HR, and if you need to pick up any interconnects...

+T and welcome!

[DSatz]

Corey321, I'm in something of a similar boat because I actually still use DAT when I can't plug in to AC powering, and a laptop computer for normal recording. It took me a little time to get used to the laptop, because no media is visibly being consumed. Psychologically that's a little bit weird.

Actually I come from the era of open-reel tape. With my Nagra and Revox recorders, I could see the reels turning. But even then, if you're not monitoring "off tape" while recording, you don't know for absolute sure that anything is being recorded, and once in a blue moon it actually wasn't, even though those reels were turning--sometimes you just press the wrong button, or a relay inside the deck fails to kick in. I suppose it just takes going through the first few experiences, and if your setup proves reliable, you can eventually stop focusing your anxiety on that, and pay attention to other stuff instead, such as (I hope) the music.

The 24-bit option is definitely a plus for live recording. It makes level-setting far less critical when you know that later on, when you're making up the CD(s), you can boost the result by 6 or 8 dB to reach a good peak level--and that doing that won't add any noise that wouldn't have been there anyway. Of course you never get 24 bits of actual resolution--no A/D converter in the world has that low a noise floor unless you turn it off. But you could get as much as 20 or 21 bits, which is a wider dynamic range than between the threshold of audibility and the onset of permanent hearing damage. I'll take that as "good enough for rock and roll" (even though I mainly record classical music).

The higher sampling rate (96 kHz) is an iffy thing. On some equipment it maybe sounds a little different to some people sometimes. But the exact cause of that change in sound quality (assuming that it's real) is questionable, and the "transferability" of that sound quality to an eventual CD is even more questionable since you end up converting to 44.1 kHz then anyway.

It's worth experimenting with, but no one should assume that the result will automatically sound better just because more samples per second are being taken. In fact there are equally valid reasons for a higher sampling frequency to result in a less accurate recording. And as far as I can see from the discussions here, the higher sampling rates are where most of the problems with the MicroTrack (II) have been.

--best regards

[daze]

-I am really freaked about not keeping the actual master I record. That is making a cd master then recording over the actual master. I assume nobody keeps the master CF cards? Could never listen to everything so if there was a problem making a cd master the actual master is gone forever.

I too feel a little freaked about deleting the original master - but there are some things you can do to calm your nerves:
*  in addition to the previous suggestions, you could also make a DAT backup of your master, so you have it on yet another type of media. 
*  you can generate a md5 of your original master file (directly in the r09 folder on your computer, after you hook it up to your computer), and then check your copies against the original md5
*  keep a bunch of copies of your original files, especially of your 'important' shows, in multiple formats (wav, wavpack, shn, flac, DAT, even analog if you want - and make copies on CDRs, DVDR's, external hard drives)
*  as the cost of SD cards is way down, buy a few of them, so if you're hitting multiple nights of shows, you don't have to immediately delete your original master, since you'll have a fresh SD card for the next night.

[stantheman1976]

I don't tape live concerts but I videotape live events such as weddings, pageants, and church services.  In each case I run either on person mic/recorder combos and/or record off the mixer so I get the announcer/pastor/groom/bride/etc...

I always end up mixing in the higher quality sound and I out put my final product back to tape for long term storage.  With solid state recorders the issue of no physical media is something that you cannot escape.  Personally, I don't trust any recordable optical media for any length of time.  Recorded optical discs can and will go bad eventually.  Hard drives will go bad eventually also.  Yes they will last quite a while, especially if they are stored properly and not used constantly.  I think the solid state and hard drive recorders that have taken over the market are good in ways and bad in ways.  People who believe all the hype they hear from sales people or media about tapeless recorders and trust their precious moments to a DVD or hard drive camcorder or people who burn their audio recordings onto one CD and stash it are going to be heartbroken in 10 years when the media they used is corrupted. 

This whole discussion can go on for days.  The whole point is if you're going to use a tapeless recorder of any kind then data redundancy is a must.  Keep what you record on at least 2 sources and refresh those sources every once in a while.  You will find the convenience of recorders like the irivers or Edirol to be unbeatable. 

[indietaperwloo]

a 10 year old dat tape shed into my dat machine, and, perhaps coincidentally, immediately caused me to have to install new heads in an otherwise fairly young machine (though out of warranty). The tape surface was all over the inside of the machine.
So a 10 year old dat tape, not only lost its data, but caused a $300 repair by tascam, who blamed the tape.

I run into that problem a lot with later generations of open reel analog tape and sometimes with cassettes.  I do a lot of restoration and archival for a living and I usually find the best way to solve a sticky tape problem is to expose the tape to heat for a few minutes or hours (depending on the intensity of heat you use) and the magnetic surface re-binds itself to the "binder" part of the tape (the non-signal part) and you'll be able to get maybe one more play out of it to transfer it to digital in the case of analog.  Never tried it with a DAT tape before.  I recently did a bunch of DAT tapes for a music therapist who taped all her sessions and wanted them on CD and they dated back to 1998.  Transferred them via S/PDIF on a Fostex D-5 machine...no problem. 

The safest way I find to "bake" tapes is to set up a box with a light bulb in it and use the heat from the light bulb to bake the tape (it's like the old EasyBake Oven).  Also, you could try a toaster oven with a convection fan on it - just make sure your temperature doesn't exceed 200 Fahrenheit.

This article will elaborate more on what I've just posted.
http://www.audio-restoration.com/baking.php

[Corey321]

Hi,

Thanks for the input, still a lot to learn. Some programs to check if my copies are the same.  I see what FLAC is but I will have to record somthing and get it in my computer and go from there. I was thinking mayby make a exact copy on a DVD and make a cd copy to listen to and trade assuming anybody does that anymore?

Made the first step and bought a R-09HR today for $276.00 shipped! Got a good price of $345.00 on feebay then got the Microsoft cash back rebate of $69.00, 20%. Well Ebay confirmed the cashback but I would not actually get it for 60 days so we will see.

So the next step is to get a couple of flash cards. I thought I would just get a Sandisk as that seems to be a truseted brand. I am definately going to start at 24/48 so I figured 4gb would be the way to go. I never record 3 hour shows. So I see there are the regular blue ones, Ultra II, Extreme, others? Reading around here I guess I did not see a exact answer, what is the difference? Somtime I will probably try 24/96 so mayby a regular one might not be a good choice? Then I have to try to make sure I do not get a fake one but there was a guide I saw that shows if they are a fake for sure.

Again thanks for the input!
Corey
 

[rastasean]

Just had other things to do with my free time.

Not better things, right? Not much beats live music of a great band and a little alcohol, right? Welcome back to taping!

[adrianf74]

Sorry for jumping into this a little late.

Going from DAT or MD (and I've used both) to Solid State Recording can be a little nerve-wracking to say the least.

The one advantage I love about Solid State Recording is that once I have my levels, I can "set it and forget it" and actually enjoy the show.

The one thing I still find strange is not have a "physical master".  As somebody pointed out, FLAC is a very good way of lossless compression for your shows.  It also has an internal CRC to ensure that every bit is what it should be at all times.

For my masters, I actually keep three versions of the show; two in FLAC format (the other is 16-Bit MP3 via R8Brain for my car stereo).  The first is the original RAW, unedited WAV.  The second is the edited and tracked version.  I then burn both of these to a DVD and also copy them to an external hard drive.  This allows me a burned copy as a back with the ability to access the show on the fly.

There are various ways of buring the show as well. One method that I like is LPLEX (audioplex.sourceforge.net).  You drag and drop your WAV/FLAC files to the program and it creates a DVD-VIDEO version of the show which is playable in all players.  24-Bit/48KHz is what I record at (R-09) so this allows me the ability to enjoy the 24-Bit version of my show.  The other neat thing about LPLEX is that it stores any secondary "XTRAS" in a seperate folder (artwork, FFP, ST5, info, etc) on the DVD-VIDEO disc as well.  And you can "revert" back to your original files from the DVD you created as well.  The only drawback I've found is that if you use a JPG as a display for a three hour show, you'll be hard-pressed to fit it on one DVD.   If anybody has a solution or alternate method, I'd love to hear about it.

[SmokinJoe]

So the next step is to get a couple of flash cards. I thought I would just get a Sandisk as that seems to be a truseted brand. I am definately going to start at 24/48 so I figured 4gb would be the way to go. I never record 3 hour shows. So I see there are the regular blue ones, Ultra II, Extreme, others?
 

FWIW I've got a couple of Sandisk 4gb cards I use with my R-09 (not HR).  They are Sandisk Ultra-II and I've never had a problem, other than the fact that the slot in the front of my wife's computer can't read them.  The cards come with a USB reader, and they work fine using that.  I also had Kingston 2gb cards and never had a glitch with those either.

[deadheadcorey]

just make extra copies, via dvdr cdr, flac, upload the show, etc. etc. 

imo i like the microtracker I 24/96 or go cheap and get a iRiver h120 or 140 those bit buckets kick some serious ass!


+t

[Corey321]

Well finally did the plunge away from dat and used my new r-09hr and had no problems. I hate that the buttons are on all sides. Anyway this is all so foreign to me, that is doing any cd's on my computer.

This is my problem now, first show switched over to a second track during the last song as 2gb is the max. I assume there is a "easy" way to join the 2 for somebody that knows what they are doing. There would be a "glitch" right?

Also just got a great Rage recording the other night so I downloaded it to my computer then uploaded it into the program that came with the r-09hr but it would not even play so I can try to figure out how to do the fades and track marks. It was recorded at 24/48 so it would not play on a real player but I did play it on another one. So how is it that it would not play on the program that came with the r-09hr?

Sorry if this sounds like I do not know anything but that is pretty much what I know about making disks on my computer.

Thanks!
Corey

[dorrcoq]

You'll be able to join the two files with any audio editor, just a matter of copying and pasting the second file to the end of the first.  And no, there will not be a glich, it is totally seamless.