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Author Topic: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)  (Read 120122 times)

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stevetoney

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #150 on: September 05, 2008, 03:53:53 AM »
But you notice that they didn't subject it to the infamous "spun wookie" test.

Take it to the zoo and let a gorilla throw it around for a day or two.

No wait...that's already been suggested above ^^.     ;D

stevetoney

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #151 on: September 05, 2008, 03:59:54 AM »
Question for the tekkies.  We spend extra money for cables and many on TS.com agree that high quality silver cables make a sound difference.  Wouldn't the same principle apply inside the box?  For example, does a PC board with a certain type of metal foil have a different sound than a PC board with another type of metal foil.

BTW, I'm not making any suggestions related to the TS-2 or implying anything.  It's just that the thought has occurred to me over the weeks that I've been reviewing this thread.

Roving Sign

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #152 on: September 05, 2008, 07:42:59 AM »
I decided to do some more additional "testing" to the pre.... 




Notice the dusty tire marks on top of the case.  The bottom was a bit scratched on the aggregate driveway. But overall, it held up pretty well.
 ;D ;D ;D

Jeeze - it's between this and the V3 - cant decide....hey could somebody go out and run over their V3 for me so I can do a true A/B comparison!!!??? ;D

Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #153 on: September 05, 2008, 09:40:26 AM »
1. Spell out TRIM like otehrs have suggested.

Done. Panel sent for prototyping.

2. Make sure we know where is ON and OFF for EACH switch like the Phase Reversal and On/Off switches, and the VU metering.

The convention is left is OFF, right is ON.

3. Have SOME KIND of numbering on the Gain knobs instead of just 'marks'. TRIM doesnt matter since the TRIM knobs will most likely 99% of teh time, be in different places on the knob/dial anyway. But Id LOVE to know EXACTLY wher my gain is at ALL TIMES just by looking at a number. That is, unless they 'lock' into their places every 6db. Do they 'snap/lock' into place or are they a variable knob Huh?

They are Grayhill 12-step selector switch.  Yes, they snap/lock into place... 12 positions. VERY HIGH QUALITY.


4. Make the cases ALL BLACK. It will be more stealthy and attract ALOT less attention than a darek blue case, at least IMO.

The case color can be replaced. I have a few different color options. Front panel will be anodized black.

5. You mean they ALL dont have transformers in them? I am ONLY interested in one w/ TRANSFORMERS to warm up my MBHO's when recording indoors Smiley

I will have Transformer versions (along with the HPF and Pad switch). This is just the STOCK version.

Thanks for the feedback!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 11:31:43 AM by fivefishdiy »
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Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #154 on: September 05, 2008, 07:55:00 PM »
I decided to do some more additional "testing" to the pre.... 


And the results of the testing...


Notice the dusty tire marks on top of the case.  The bottom was a bit scratched on the aggregate driveway. But overall, it held up pretty well.
 ;D ;D ;D

very nice!
but it should have been ON & running with the meters blinking...  :D

the target price of $499 is more than fair
and they way this Preamp has been cooperatively developed by TS'ers ideas and suggestions is awesome

thanx
-- Ian
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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2008, 12:00:45 PM »

Great work!!  Looking forward to seeing these roll off of your one man assembly line.  Thank you.

 :clapping:  :clapping:


hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2008, 07:35:45 PM »
Price is for a no trafo, no HPF and fully assembled.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2008, 09:01:28 PM »
1. Spell out TRIM like otehrs have suggested.

Done. Panel sent for prototyping.

2. Make sure we know where is ON and OFF for EACH switch like the Phase Reversal and On/Off switches, and the VU metering.

The convention is left is OFF, right is ON.

3. Have SOME KIND of numbering on the Gain knobs instead of just 'marks'. TRIM doesnt matter since the TRIM knobs will most likely 99% of teh time, be in different places on the knob/dial anyway. But Id LOVE to know EXACTLY wher my gain is at ALL TIMES just by looking at a number. That is, unless they 'lock' into their places every 6db. Do they 'snap/lock' into place or are they a variable knob Huh?

They are Grayhill 12-step selector switch.  Yes, they snap/lock into place... 12 positions. VERY HIGH QUALITY.


4. Make the cases ALL BLACK. It will be more stealthy and attract ALOT less attention than a darek blue case, at least IMO.

The case color can be replaced. I have a few different color options. Front panel will be anodized black.

5. You mean they ALL dont have transformers in them? I am ONLY interested in one w/ TRANSFORMERS to warm up my MBHO's when recording indoors Smiley

I will have Transformer versions (along with the HPF and Pad switch). This is just the STOCK version.

Thanks for the feedback!

+T 5F ;D I REALLY APPRECIATE you taking the time to answer mine, and most everyone elses questions. You ARE THE FRICKIN MAN ;D 8)

And I def think that $499.00 is MORE THAN FAIR ENOUGH IMO ;D Do you have ANY IDEA how much the Transformer versions will be ??? I would want one w/ TRANSFORMERS, but WITHOUT HPF Filters ;) I have only used an HPF live twice ever(50Hz/6db Octave on my old V3). I do that kind of stuff in post these days if its even necessary ;) But I MUST HAVE TRANSFORMERS in my TS-2 :)

And really FiveFishDIY, we CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH for even listening to our needs, let alone putting them into EFFECT and making a product that is EXACTLY what 99% of us want and need :) The size looks to be ABSOLUTE PERFECT for our needs, and if the sound is HALF AS GOOD AS IT LOOKS, then I think we've all struck gold :) And I'm sure that it sounds just as nice as it looks :)

And if you need a beta tester, I'm your man ;) For real tho, depending on when you can get a prototype or 2 done for us tapers to try out in the field, you get ahold of me and let me know iof I can do ANYTHING to help. Because Pittsburgh has a good bit of shows coming up between now and Thanksgiving(if a prototype can even be accomplished and finished by then) and I could DEFINITELY give it a good run for its money w/ an ONSLAUGHT of shows to test it with ;) Obviously, I would be testing it w/ my MBHO  Hypers(KA500HN's) or Cards(KA200N's) -> MBHO 603A Bodies -> TS-2 TRANSFORMER Preamp -> Sound Devices 722 [24-Bit/44.1kHz]

I would also LOVE to try out the TS-2 NON-TRANSFORMER-BASED Preamp ;)

And I do have one question for you tho. Have you even ran ANY kind of sound tests thru the TS-2 prototype you have done yet ??? If so, how would you categorize its sound ??? Transparent(I'm sure its more of a transparent sound since its NON-TRANSFORMER-BASED and all). Or does it have a slight warmth to it ??? I know, I know, we really cant make those calls yet since its so early in its inception, and it simply hasnt been run in the field yet w/ a variety of mics to determine that yet, but I was just curious!!! I am just VERY ANXIOUS to hear this sucka ASAP :)

And THANKS AGAIN for all you have done for us thus far brotha! Your work is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED :) I frickin CANNOT WAIT to buy and run one of your transformer-based TS-2 Preamps ;D 8) :smoking: :spin:

And if you could give me/us just an IDEA of how much the TS-2 TRANSFORMER-BASED Preamp would cost, I would really appreciate it. I just want to know so that I can start saving some $$ up :P ;D Obviously, its going to be more than the $499.00 price tag of the STOCK TS-2 preamp. I would guess that around the $6-700.00 would be fair. But then your wading in waters that have already been TRIED AND TRUE like w/ the Aerco Preamps. Theyre $750.00 NEW and are going to be your competition most likely, at least w/ the TRANSFORMER option ;) And if you can produce them quicker than Jerry from Aerco does(usually takes him anywhere from 2-5 months to complete an Aerco for someone) then you should be in good shape. Altho, I must say, if you are going to charge around the same as the Aerco costs for the Transformer-Based Preamp, then I think ALOT of folks would have to think LONG AND HARD whether to buy either your TS-2 preamp or the Aerco. I think that just because the Aerco name has been around for SOOOO LONG, and Jerry's quality standards have already been achieved for many years and he already has a great reputation in the taping community for building GREAT SOUNDING TRANSFORMER-BASED PREAMPS, that ALOT of folks may choose to buy an Aerco, that is, unless you can sell for AT LEAST $100.00 or more LESS than the Aerco costs. IMO, thats the ONLY WAY you can undercut the Aerco's price and make people buy your TS2 Transformer-Based Preamp over Jerry's Aerco Preamps :)

To be 100% honest, unless your TS-2 Transformer-Based Preamp is a good bit cheaper than the Aerco by AT LEAST $100.00 or more, then I would probably buy an Aerco instead. Just because of Jerry being around for so long and we all know he knows his shit(not saying you dont, because you obviously do) but thats a tough call for alot of folks. We already know how AMAZING the Aerco sounds, and I think alot of tapers would rather go the tried and true method for a transformer-based preamp(The Aerco) rather than buy something new and theyre unsure exactly how its going to sound until some tapers start running them for AT LEAST 6 months or so!

That said, I guess I would be one of the guinea pigs and shell out the cash for one of your TS-2 Transformer-Based Preamps, because the ONLY WAY we're going to find out hwo it sounds, is to use the things as much as possible in the field :)

I would just hate for you to put ALL of this time and money and energy into a transformer-based preamp and then it not sell too well because a person could buy an Aerco for around the same amount of cash($$). IF the Aerco is going to be your competition both sound-wise and price-wise, the one main thing that may definitely go your way is quickness and speed compared to the Aerco tho. Jerry takes a good amount of time from the time you order/make a downpayment, to the time its 100% finished. So if you could get us tapers a preamp within a week or 2 after placing the order/making a downpayment/whatever, then you should be pretty good to go. Because I know if I had the choice between the Aerco and the TS-2(Transformer-Based Option obviously) and they were around the same price tag, but I could get your TS-2 ALOT QUICKER than it would take me to get the Aerco, then Id DEFINITELY buy from you, without a doubt :) ;)

So, when do you *think* that these will hit the streets and we can FINALLY start to use your TS2 Preamps ??? Before the end of the year ??? Does that sound reasonable ??? Obviously, we want to use your preamps BADLY and are salivating over them on the computer screen, but are really in NO HURRY, as I'm sure I speak for EVERYONE on ts.com about this, but I'M SURE we'd all rather have a flawless preamp w/ EVERY DETAIL looked over very well, and would rather wait until it was PERFECTED, rather than to rush and get a few out just to get them done as quickly as possible :) BUT, I am SUPER ANXIOUS to run one of those. So, take your time like you have done thus far, and make sure everything is as perfect as can be on it(well as perfect as possible anyway) and it will DEFINITELY pay off in the end ;)

Now hurry the hell up and get these done for us. And dont forget to start pumping out those TS-2 TRANSFORMER-BASED PREAMPS AS SOON as the STOCK TS-2 prototype's are done ;D 8) :smoking: :spin: And I'm obviously just kidding of course. Well, kind of ;D 8)

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #158 on: September 06, 2008, 09:14:41 PM »
Oh, and just ONE MORE QUESTION FiveFishDIY. About those switches above the gain/trim knobs, the ones that control the VU Meters/+48v/Phase Reversal/On/Off switch. Now, are those just simple switches that just push to the right or to teh left ??? Or are they the nicer kind that you ahve to pull up on first before you can move it to the left or right ??? Its just sort of a safety switch because they somewhat 'lock' into place, and have to be pulled upwards before they can be moved to On/Off ala teh NBox/NBox+ On/Off switch.

Id MUCH PREFER the kind of switches like the NBox/NBox+ has that you have to pull directly upwards before you can move the switch to the left/right. That way, it would help prevent the switch getting accidentally bumped in a stealth situation or iof my bag got bumped while on the floor, or some drunk dude stepped onto my bag while I was recording. If you had those locking switches that you have to pull directly upwards before you can move them from the position theyre in, then theyd be damn near impossible to mess up a recording, because any kind of impact to them that isnt wanted(like a stealth taper accidentally bumpng his TS-2 preamp when checking/adjusting levels, or the drunk guy who is WASTED and steps onto my bag while Im recording, which happens ALOT at Mr. Smalls Theatre here in Pittsburgh, since where we setup to record is RIGHT OUTSIDE the bar entrance/exit :P ) but those kinds of motions would be a DOWNWARD motion, thus would not affect us AT ALL if you used those locking switches ;) Id rather pay the extra $$ to have those locking switches(if you can even call them 'locking switches'). But do you know what exactly Im talking about? Oooops, I forgot who I was talking to there for a second. Im POSITIVE you know what Im talking about. I just hope you can incorporate them into the design, because NOTHING would suck worse than having switches that ARE NOT recessed and can EASILY be accidentally bumped into the opposite position than where wed want them to be :P :'(

Hmmmm, wonder how many more times I can say 'locking switches' in this post without confusing you more already? ;D
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Offline PH

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #159 on: September 06, 2008, 10:17:01 PM »
Wow, that was a mouthful Beaner!  ::) :o ;)

Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #160 on: September 06, 2008, 10:35:53 PM »
Thanks for the detailed feedback. I appreciate it.

Okay, let's see...Let me share with you my thoughts.

At the moment, I'm making a 2nd prototype. Trying to see how long it takes me to build one... given this is just a sidejob and not a full time job.  Also, just making sure that the pre works everytime it's built.  (On my SC-1 preamp, I built something like 7-8 prototypes before selling the 1st kit.)

There will definitely be a transformer based preamp. I'd like to get the stock version out first... and use the income from that to further fund development of the transformer-based preamp. 

Considering the time it takes to build a unit, the $499 price may be an introductory price. This price is me doing almost FREE  labor, i.e. the time I spend on it is more than I charge for it. I'm asking around how much it would take for an assembly factory to do that job for me, and yikes!... the $499 price isn't justifiable.

The trafo based preamp with the HPF and relay controls... (and not counting factory labor, and just me doing the labor), will probably be in the $700-800++ range? I don't know yet for sure. I'd like to sell at a low price, while covering costs and making a good enough profit to make it worth my time... Otherwise, I could just spend my time on my regular business and charge clients my regular rate.  At the moment, what I charge for labor for these pres are way way way low than my regular job rate. If I can find a factory that will do all the work for me, and doesn't charge me too much, sell at a low price, and I make up for it in volume, then I'll be happy with that. Right now, I'm in startup mode... bootstrapping, watching my expenses and scraping every few dollar I can find to keep this going.

I'm sure the Aerco sounds nice since a lot of you guys really dig it.  Some people might prefer the established Aerco and some may want to try a new one. That's cool with me. Choices are good. Different flavors are good.  Just don't forget the fact that the two preamps are totally DIFFERENT, and will appeal to different people.  The size, form factor, features, controls, choice of components, build quality, power supply requirements, are all different. Take that into consideration, and don't just compare the bottom price alone.

Honestly, I don't consider it as my competition. Instead, I see Sound Devices, Grace, RNP as my competition (both in the tapers world, and home studio recording world).... and I'm the big crazy, mad underdog. I don't have deep pockets that affords me the economies of scale, that will let me buy parts in greater bulk at a greater discount, I'm using PTH instead of SMD parts, so right there, my parts and labor costs are high compared to these guys. I don't have dealers and distribution... so it will be tough for me to compete against these guys who already have great products and great track record!

It's like.... what the heck am I doing this????

I realize I am CRAZY for even doing this (wife says so)... but I LOVE doing this. I love doing electronics, thinking up things, planning, debugging and love hearing the feedback from satisifed buyers/users of my kits/preamps.  It doesn't feel like work to me. It's having FUN and doing something I love, and making something what I think is GOOD, VERY GOOD and some people seem to agree with me also.

If all I care about is money, then the SMARTEST thing for me to do is stop this nonsense, concentrate on my consulting business and make a guaranteed $75 per hour.... I am buried with work and have fallen a bit behind on that... because of this preamp business. But there's not much fun in my regular day job (been doing it for the last 8 yrs now)... at least, not this kind of fun working with preamps and electronics!

As for the sound, see what other people have said here:
http://fivefishstudios.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=46

The TS-2 is based on my SC-1 preamp. Here are audio samples of my SC-1 preamp (no transformers).
http://fivefishstudios.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=48

And oh yeah.... I've been fortunate that my SC-1 pre has been mentioned in MIX magazine, used as the reference preamp in testing these 2 microphones. I'm thinking ... "if it's good enough to be used for that, and mentioned in a national, well-respected magazine for recording engineers, then it must be ....<fill in the blank> :)
AUGUST 2008 issue

Field Test: Avant Electronics Avantone CK-40 Stereo Mic
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_avant_electronics_avantone/

and also back in MAY 2008 issue

Field Test: Peluso 22 47SE Tube Microphone
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_peluso_se_tube/

My switches are not switched UP/DOWN but instead are switched LEFT/RIGHT.  In addition, the toggle handles just sticks out behind the hole and you'd have to use your fingernails or small fingers to slide it left or right. Very difficult for somebody to step on it and have it switched accidentally.

Thanks for the comments and feedback!
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #161 on: September 07, 2008, 12:50:39 AM »
If I can find a factory that will do all the work for me, and doesn't charge me too much, sell at a low price, and I make up for it in volume, then I'll be happy with that. Right now, I'm in startup mode... bootstrapping, watching my expenses and scraping every few dollar I can find to keep this going.

Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China. It's not as hard to set up as you may think, once you have some reliable contacts there. You could start with them populating & testing boards and shipping them to you for final assembly, or go the whole hog.

Your current pricing puts you only $160 below a Sound Devices MixPre. Factoring in the need for external power for the TS-2 it's ~$90 less. 

digifish
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 12:52:42 AM by digifish_music »
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Offline JD

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #162 on: September 07, 2008, 12:58:53 AM »
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China.

Personally, I would rather pay a higher price than see this made in china.
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Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #163 on: September 07, 2008, 01:24:44 AM »
 100 units a month? I wish!... but probably not... 15-20 units will be good.  5 will be more likely.

If I'm consistently hitting a consistent number of units sold per month, I will definitely switch to SMT. I'm not even going to attempt to do 100 units a month manually.  

I've talked to a company here in the U.S. for assembly work and I have their estimate. I'm running the numbers. It could work... the challenge is coming up with the big money upfront to purchase parts, and pay for labor. 

UPDATE: I finished and tested the 2nd prototype TS-2 motherboard, swapped the boards with the 1st prototype and worked really nice at first powerup! No problems.






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Offline digifish_music

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Re: New TS-2 Preamp ... under development (part II)
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2008, 01:42:02 AM »
Don't overlook the possibility of manufacturing in China.

Personally, I would rather pay a higher price than see this made in china.

You can specify whatever quality you need, and manufacturing costs would be 10-20% that of doing it in the US.

digifish
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