Topic: General Question regarding Taping my bands shows....

[sacredprofanities]

Hi there.

So I'm in a 5 piece band and we are looking to find a good way to record our show's and practices.  Initially I was going to get a Recorder from Sweetwater, but then someone suggested just getting a good mic and going through a laptop.  Problem with that is I would also then need to buy a good Soundcard.  Is that worth it and would the quality be good enough?

I'm hoping not to spend more than $300 total...but that can move a bit.

Thanks for any and all help.

[rokpunk]

For an all in one, so easy even a musician can do it, recorder, the Edirol R09 is hard to beat and is right in the price range that you mentioned.

[sacredprofanities]

Thanks for you're suggestion...

What if I just got a good mic, and a good soundcard and went through a laptop?   Which would work best in your opinions?

[stantheman1976]

The Edirol would be better.  It's a good little unit.  If you can gather up some more dough the Sony PCM-D50 is awesome.  It can be had for under $500 shipped from B&H Photo.

[JiB97]

The Zoom H2 is also a nice option, and cheaper than the R-09.

[jacobmyers]

The easy answer is that you can't even get a microphone (or pair) that's worth using for $300. The all-in-one recorders you can get at this price really aren't worth your time if you're looking to edit the stuff you record on your computer anyway. So getting some decent microphones and an external preamp/interface (and recording directly to the laptop) is a fine idea.

I'll probably catch some flak from the "Panasonic crowd" (referring to the tiny Panasonic capsules that are readily available for around $20/matched DIY pair) for saying that you can't get a good stereo pair for under $300 but let's admit that those capsules are what they are -- the only thing that puts them above the microphone in a "shoebox" cassette recorder is the fact that they're not installed in one at the moment. That said; there have been some inspiring recordings made with those cheap little capsules. So let's say that you're handy with a soldering iron and have good spatial sense to help you with mic placement (which is, in a lot of ways, more important than the microphone you're using). Just get the cheap capsules, build your own cables, and make "dummy head" out of a Nerf ball.

You'll need a preamp of some sort to power these capsules. You could try wiring them to 1/8" TRS and just plug them into the laptop's microphone jack to see how they sound that way. You'd be surprised at how good some newer laptop sound cards actually are (a lot of them will actually record in 24/96). If your band is loud enough to "push off" the noise floor to a certain extent, and the computer's mic input provides enough power to the capsules, you could end up with some nice recordings. But you'll probably want to get something external to power the microphones.

Here's where the options are many. You can get a "battery box" and run the mics through that into the computer's analog line input. That's not a horrible idea if you can tolerate the laptop's sound card. If you can't tolerate the laptop soundcard, there are dozens of external microphone preamps with USB or FireWire interfaces (and some with both) in various levels of quality and with various features. They also come at various price points. I'm not going to name anything specific but I will say that this is one area where you want to: Buy once. Buy "for the job" you're doing. Be done with it.

What I'm saying is that you'll probably want to get something that you can "grow in to" (such as when you buy or have access to "better" microphones). So you'll definitely need XLR inputs (or those XLR + 1/4" TRS combo jacks that have been finding their way into everything). Get something that's powered either by battery or by the USB bus. Wall warts are no fun. You got a laptop for "mobility", right? Why tether your microphone preamp? Anyway; get something that both gets good reviews and shows good specifications. Again; I'm not going to name anything specific but these "requirements" bring your options down to just a few devices.

This should be a good starting point for you if you do go with the "microphone/preamp/computer" signal path. Good luck!

[stevetoney]

I tend to agree that the Zoom might come up short.  It kinda depends on what you want.

Under $300 mics...I'd debate a bit with the previous poster.  A pair of Avantone CK1's can be purchased for around $300 new and I think I saw a pair go used recently on the Yard Sale for just over $200.  These mics kick butt soundwise for that price.  Search the Live Music Archive for samples.  You'll like what you hear.  Combine those with the R-09 that is currently in the YS for I think $230 and you've got a pretty darn nice sounding unit for under $500.  You'd definitely need cables and probably would want something between the mics and the recorder (preamp with phantom power).

Another under $300 mic option would be AT-853's either with or without a battery box.  These mics are discussed every several days on this site and run less than $200 new from www.soundprofessionals.com depending on configuration.  Same thing...listen to archive for some sound samples.  I think there is some AT-853 gear currently for sale on the YS.

Church audio gear would also be a reasonable option...look in the retail forum (just below the Yard Sale on the home page) for Chris's (Chris Church of Church Audio) specials that he runs all the time.  There are one or two used sets of Church gear (mics and 9100 preamp) currently for sale on the YS.

All of these would be options that approach your budget and provide a reasonable sound combination.

BTW, I can't really address recording directly to computer.  I think most people on this list don't consider it simply because we open record in the club environment and bringing a bulky laptop out for people to spill their beers into and burn with their cigs isn't an option since there are fairly inexpensive options for digital recorders.  I've seen plenty of SBD connections directly feeding into a laptop at the SBD though, so I know it's done.  Most on this list though prefer the live recording over the SBD because the SBD mix is often off and SBDs can be pretty sterile and uninspiring.

[datbrad]

If the original poster is able to push his budget up to the $500 range, I say just get the Sony D50 and be done with it. It's mics sound great to me for the built in type, and later on you can add the XLR adapter or an outboard preamp with a pair of Beyers or something and have a decent little rig for not a ton of $$$.

[stantheman1976]

If you have a laptop and want to use it specifically you can get a small pair of mics like Church Audio and a preamp for about that price.  Or you can get som AT mics and preamp.  Go line in on your laptop and you're good to go.  Most tapers just use smaller sized recorders because they're convenient and take up much less space than a laptop.  I don't want to convince anyone to spend money they don't need to but I've got the Sony D50 and it really is an excellent unit.  The built in mics and pre are good quality.  It does use Sony's memory sticks which is my only complaint, but it has 4GB built in.  So you could record an entire practice or more at 16/44. 

[cybergaloot]

The E-MU Tracker Pre looks intriguing and is very inexpensive as far as these things go ($125 +-):
http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=17511&nav=features
It is also very versatile according to their specs. Its a relatively new product and so far there has been no feedback from tapers using it in the field.

The Tracker Pre works as either a computer recording interface or as a stand alone preamp. It can power either full Phantom power mics using XLR connectors or the smaller stereo mics that use 3.5mm TRS connectors.

Used Edirol UA-5 recording interfaces can be had for less than $125 on eBay (unmodified versions).

You would then need some mics, a pair of Church-Audio CA-11 or the better CA-14 mics would work with either the E-MU Tracker Pre or get one of the Church-Audio preamps (CA-9000 or the better CA-9100). They are amazing for the price. Chris Church is a good guy to deal with and stands behind his products 100%.

A pair of used Studio Project C4's would fit in your budget and are pretty good mics for the money. There was a pair in the yard sale for $200, I don't know if they are still there.

[cybergaloot]

BTW, I have a Zoom H2 and find it to be better than the detractors say it is BUT its external mic-in sucks. If you go the H2 route, I'd recommend using an external preamp and mics into the line-in. I've used the H2 with Church-Audio CA-11 mics and CA-9000 preamp with good results.

[MSTaper]

I bought that pair of Avantone CK1s and I'm very happy with them. I think they're pretty good since I cannot afford "top shelf" mics at this time. MSTaper

[jacobmyers]

Under $300 mics...I'd debate a bit with the previous poster.
<snip>
Most on this list though prefer the live recording over the SBD because the SBD mix is often off and SBDs can be pretty sterile and uninspiring.

+T for the debate -- and for the good finds. The examples you listed didn't even enter my mind when I was thinking about microphones. Like I said; I've heard some good stuff come out of really cheap microphones. When I started taping, I was using an MS907 and several different recording rigs (and a hand-built 1/8" female stereo to twin 1/4" male mono cable) depending on what and where I was recording. But the MS907 is still barely a step above using a shoebox recorder. That can be helped a little "in post" (I actually developed a "907 Correction" EQ setting) but as far as getting a decent recording that you don't have to mess with, there's no replacement (that I've found) for spending a little more money. And, really, the sky's the limit on prices for truly high-quality microphones. Some say that the NT4 that I use is crap for recording music. It certainly has its shortcomings but the ease-of-use is hard to beat and the price was right. A bit above the OP's budget but still...

And I must say that I agree with you about soundboard patching. Most of the time, they sound like crap (and it's all about the missing backline and the sterility of the vocal). I've heard a few off-the-board recordings that were a feed from the stage monitors (as opposed to the mains) that weren't terrible but those were of electronic music with tweaked vocals. When recording a band such as the OP's, with a backline, there's no substitute for putting microphones in the room somewhere. Having a feed from the board (to reinforce the image) can be nice but if the person behind the console is good at what they do and the person with the microphones knows where to put them, you don't need it. Not to denigrate the art and science of studio recording (in the rare occasions when it's done well) but there is nothing better than a quality recording of a live performance. As it was in the beginning...

[sunjan]

Used Edirol UA-5 recording interfaces can be had for less than $125 on eBay (unmodified versions).

IIRC, the UA5 converts the analog signal input AD>DA, so it's not bit perfect if your laptop only takes analog in. It's only good for pairing up with digi-in bit buckets. Maybe an unmodded UA5 behaves differently, if you connect it via USB?

There are half-decent open mics (suggested above) that can be had in pairs for $200, and add any of the many external USB preamps/soundcards around (some in the $100 range, but it'd be a squeeze), so it can be done.

With the lappy rig you'd always have to take the powering into consideration, and the time it takes to set it up, versus all-in-one field gear.