Topic: mid side question?

[Kindguy]

This may sound stupid but I've never ran mid side.

If my pre has a mid side setting. Do I still have to have software to mix it or am i ready to go?

Thanks!

[wklitz]

This may sound stupid but I've never ran mid side.

If my pre has a mid side setting. Do I still have to have software to mix it or am i ready to go?

Thanks!

Technically, you'd be all set, however that would be mixing it on the fly, lot easier to get a perfect mix doing it later on the computer.

[tgakidis]

I am actually gonna give it a go thursday with my new mini-mp.  Is it so difficult to do it on the fly?  I would imagine that if you wear some good headphones and keep an eye on the recorder levels, you should be OK.

[Will_S]

I am actually gonna give it a go thursday with my new mini-mp.  Is it so difficult to do it on the fly?  I would imagine that if you wear some good headphones and keep an eye on the recorder levels, you should be OK.

You can get a decent result on the fly, but (especially assuming loudish rock music) there is no way your headphones will block enough external sound for you to really hear what is going on in the headphones.  Even if you could, the effective width that sounds best on headphones is generally not what will sound best when played back over speakers - usually what sounds best on headphones is too narrow over speakers.

[tgakidis]

I am actually gonna give it a go thursday with my new mini-mp.  Is it so difficult to do it on the fly?  I would imagine that if you wear some good headphones and keep an eye on the recorder levels, you should be OK.

You can get a decent result on the fly, but (especially assuming loudish rock music) there is no way your headphones will block enough external sound for you to really hear what is going on in the headphones.  Even if you could, the effective width that sounds best on headphones is generally not what will sound best when played back over speakers - usually what sounds best on headphones is too narrow over speakers.

The user guide for the mini-mp says that the best ratio is 3 to 1 (3 parts mid to 1 part side) using the m/s setting.  So how does that translate to db's.  Say I peak at -6 db on mid, should i peak at -18 db side?

[Will_S]

I am actually gonna give it a go thursday with my new mini-mp.  Is it so difficult to do it on the fly?  I would imagine that if you wear some good headphones and keep an eye on the recorder levels, you should be OK.

You can get a decent result on the fly, but (especially assuming loudish rock music) there is no way your headphones will block enough external sound for you to really hear what is going on in the headphones.  Even if you could, the effective width that sounds best on headphones is generally not what will sound best when played back over speakers - usually what sounds best on headphones is too narrow over speakers.

The user guide for the mini-mp says that the best ratio is 3 to 1 (3 parts mid to 1 part side) using the m/s setting.  So how does that translate to db's.  Say I peak at -6 db on mid, should i peak at -18 db side?

I don't agree that blindly following any such suggestion will get you the best results.  That said, I would think (don't know, no experience with the mini-mp) that when you switch it to m/s mode, the meters show the new left/right signals and not the raw mid/side.  If that's the case, you'd want both meters peaking similarly.  You can figure out by changing the gain on just the mid mic and seeing if it affects both channels on the meters.

If the gain/trim knobs are marked in dB, you could probably figure out the right gain difference to have your mid 3x hotter than your side (assuming equal mic sensitivity).  A 12 dB difference is too much, that would be ~4:1.  6dB would be ~2:1.  You'd need to fool around with logarithms and such to figure out the exact setting for 3:1, but again I don't recommend that anyway.

Why not just do it in post?

[NOLAfishwater]

do it in post, so that you are not limited to the setting of your preamp. you can dial it in to exactly what your ears like best. there are free plugins out there for it.

[tgakidis]

Everyone seems to think doing it post is the way to go.  I just wanted to use the faetures on my new toy .  I always have done it post with my lsd2, so i will play another day....

+T's all around....

[Kindguy]

T's around. Thanks everyone.

[tgakidis]

do it in post, so that you are not limited to the setting of your preamp. you can dial it in to exactly what your ears like best. there are free plugins out there for it.

Louie,  What program do you use?  I have always used soundforge, which has a decoder.

[NOLAfishwater]

do it in post, so that you are not limited to the setting of your preamp. you can dial it in to exactly what your ears like best. there are free plugins out there for it.

Louie,  What program do you use?  I have always used soundforge, which has a decoder.

I used soundforge once, but then switched over to using Wavelab 5. It is a good bit easier to mix with its plugin. Still use Soundforge to track b/c you can zoom in to where you are putting the split.

[crackmc]

[m/s n00b]how do you guys mix the mid-side in post? i have Soundforge 6 and Adobe Audition 1.5...i assume i can use one (either?) of these programs to do it?

my lack of knowledge on this subject is the only reason i haven't run this config [/m/s n00b]

[page]

Even if you could, the effective width that sounds best on headphones is generally not what will sound best when played back over speakers - usually what sounds best on headphones is too narrow over speakers.

Correct, right now since I don't have any speakers anymore, I'm limited to headphones, so I try and get a mix that sounds great over headphones when I merge the channels by 10-15%. Another way is to get a good mix, then add about 2-3db of side to it (almost sounds too much) to spread it out a bit. That way it's a compromise between headphones and speakers. The downside is I spend a lot of time tinkering with the mix as a result to get it where I want it in post.

[m/s n00b]how do you guys mix the mid-side in post? i have Soundforge 6 and Adobe Audition 1.5...i assume i can use one (either?) of these programs to do it?

my lack of knowledge on this subject is the only reason i haven't run this config [/m/s n00b]

Well, there are (in general) two ways. One is to use a plugin and tweak with the fake nobs and stuff till it sounds like you want. The second is to take the two tracks, duplicate both, pan the originals to a full left, and the duplicates to the right, then invert the duplicate side track and play with the decibel level of the resulting mix. The later is how I do it in Audacity since I can't use most VST plugins and I havn't found a good AU plugin. The former is easy to do, just takes some time to listen for what you want the mix to be. The later is a little tougher, but you get to play with the channels individually so if you want to rotate the mix to "look" left or right, it's easier to do.*#*

*#* Presuming that the VST plugins link the channels, if they don't then this is moot.

Also, if you don't pad the side with extra gain (or remove the same amount afterward), the stock 1:1 ratio yields an image which is reminiscent of a hyper pattern with an angle of approximately 135.

If you are really interested in midside recording, take a look at Trevor Owen de Clercq's Master's thesis paper on M/S imaging. I don't recommend you read it in one sitting though, read 4 pages and put it down for digestion. Just remember that results (in theory) will be better for identical capsules, and not a mishmash as he uses in one of the experiments. It's a shame he didn't use something like the LSD2. (http://www.midside.com/pdf/nyu/masters_thesis.pdf)

[anechoic]

thanks for posting the link the the thesis paper on MS!! excellent!
very informative and appreciated