Topic: schoeps double mid side

[jerryfreak]

I already have 2 4v's and an mk8, and was interested in trying out this technique. id be likely to build my own mount rather than drop a G on the official setup

could i simply record it as 3 channels and decode it in software, or is there something
special the splitter box is doing?

I imagine the splitter box is analogous to a VMS, which seems to have been replaced by
software in many midside applications, due to the ability to mix in post in a controlled
environment.

ive also got a single mk4 and an mk21, i wonder how those would work in place of one or
both of the vertical caps? is there something about the side-pickup caps that make the
setup more coincident or other sonic effects?

also, in general, other than the uber cool factor is there really any reason to record a stereo PA in surround mode? i have a feeling this would border from diminishing returns in an outdoor setting to completely useless indoors.

[page]

disclaimer: I don't use this method, but I've read a bit and understand the M/S application enough to be dangerous. Keep that in mind.

I'd recommend recording it as three channels if you are willing to fool with it in post. That way you can figure out based on your own surround setup where the decoding should occur and how much mid/side in each.

If you swap one of the mk4s for the mk21 (which has a wider pickup, correct?), I'd recommend it on the front end. The reason is the tighter your mid (either front or back), the tighter (or more hyper-ish) the decoding focal point is which I think wouldn't sound as natural in a surround environment. So if you have the mk21 in the back, you end up with a flat back image, where as in the front, you can spread out the decoding a bit more without resorting to an tight pattern for your LF/RF. A natural reproduction (good or bad) I think is the objective with concert recording in surround, so thats where I'm getting the above thoughts.

Is it worth doing outside? I think so, if I could get my hands on a spare BSC1 mic and a second recorder (or a 4ch), I'd look at doing it when i'm at a festival or outdoors. Indoors, I think its sort of overkill unless you are really big on "recreating the room" (or you are in the middle so you would hear more crowd behind you when they cheer) in which case go for it. Look on the bright side, if it doesn't work, you still have a regular midside of the front and you've learned something.

ymmv, just my thoughts. best of luck, I'm envious of your position. 

[John Willett]

Make sure you get Schoeps's Double-MS plugin - a free download from the Schoeps website.

Great for stereo as well.

[boojum]

Keep us in the loop.  I am going back to working with this setup again.  I use two Mk4's and a Mk8.  I have the Schoeps decoder.  Get it from their website.

[DSatz]

I just wanted to mention that a Macintosh version of the double M/S plug-in seems to exist now.

--best regards

[jerryfreak]

schoeps never sent me the decoder, i filled out the form. does anybody have it?

I just wanted to mention that a Macintosh version of the double M/S plug-in seems to exist now.

--best regards

[boojum]

Schoeps will not "send" you a decoder.  When they get around to it they will send you a link to download it.  It is a plug-in.  It is also proprietary so I do not think they want it shared around like it is freeware.

[jerryfreak]

so how many more weeks should i wait for their 'rareware'?

Schoeps will not "send" you a decoder.  When they get around to it they will send you a link to download it.  It is a plug-in.  It is also proprietary so I do not think they want it shared around like it is freeware.

[boojum]

Jerry, I have no idea how long you should wait.  It took a week or two for my copy to show up.  If you have a problem with Schoeps you should talk to them.  I am retired, and never worked for them anyway.

Cheers     

[jerryfreak]

i got it now! installed like a breeze as a vst plugin in soundforge

thanks to all that offered!

[F.O.Bean]

anyone have a link to this?

[JasonSobel]

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/dms_plugin/overview
http://www.schoeps.de/en/order_plugin

[DSatz]

With the microphones you have, you should definitely be able to record and process "double M/S" without Schoeps' special mounting hardware or other outboard accessories. In Europe there is considerably more surround sound recording the professional level than there is here in the States. The "double M/S" system was originally conceived at Schoeps as a way to produce 5.0 or 5.1 surround sound, and that's what the accessories are mainly for (such as the transformer box with the three inputs and the five outputs).

The software plug-in is based on the specific characteristics of the MK 4V and MK 8 capsules (or the corresponding CCM-series microphones) so the results won't match what the software controls are showing you if you use (say) an MK 21 as the front capsule, but you can still futz around and choose settings by ear, and you might find settings that you like, who knows? It's just not the way the system was designed, and it probably won't work as well as if you Read and Follow the Directions on the Label. But sometimes the destination is the journey, and you won't necessarily break anything by experimenting.

For me, and I suspect most other Americans here, the main attraction of this approach is having a better way to tailor your two-channel stereo recordings "after the fact" than you get with regular M/S. With regular M/S you really have only one variable that you control: the relative proportion of S versus M signal. Add more S and the stereo image widens, but the amount of reverberance also increases. That limits your options because when you widen out, you probably want a bit more direct sound (more detail) rather than less. As a result, whenever I've recorded M/S I've never felt that there was more than one plausible compromise setting.

Double M/S, on the other hand, especially via the software plug-in, gives you two independent variables that can be chosen "after the fact": stereo image width AND reverberance (separately). That's neat.

--best regards

[notlance]

I've been using the DMS setup for a couple of years now and have posted a few times about it.  Here is one such post:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=123523.msg1856067#msg1856067

And I have played with the Schoeps plug-in which has cool graphics, but I actually mix the DMS by setting up 4 tracks in a DAW (Front, Left i.e. S+, Right i.e. S-, and Back).  Mixing by ear is not difficult, and the DMS technique gives you a lot of flexibility.  I have found, however, that one cannot seem to move the mics closer sonically without narrowing the stereo image, so I tend to put the mics closer than I would for a MS setup.  Moving the mics "back" is easy; just add more Back channel, and perhaps adjust the Sides to maintain the same stereo width.