Topic: new marantz PMD 661

[JasonSobel]

alright, here are a couple of samples (the whole show will be up on archive.org shortly, both 16 bit & 24 bit)
the only processing on these was normalizing (based on peak level), resample to 44.1, and dither to 16 bit.  Everything was done in Samplitude.

source:
(on-stage) beyerdynamic CK930 > Marantz PMD-661 w/ oade "concert mod" (@ 24 bit / 48 kHz)

"Invisible Landscape"
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2u79kh

"Berber Song"
http://www.sendspace.com/file/8fz5h6



and here's a screenshot from Samplitude, showing the minor brickwalling:

[Since85]

Good info Jason, thanks!

I know with the ACM 671, one should run the pad on at -20 db, and run the mics fully hot (no pad). I bet if you ran your mics with no pad, and set the 661 at -18 db, you should eliminate your brickwall problem (probably check with Doug on this). I believe that the 661 has 3 different pad settings, so you can always have a lower pad setting on the deck for quieter, non-rock shows. Probably just take a bit of time to match the new deck with you existing setup.

Please keep us updated, thanks!

P.S. If you have an external battery pack plugged in, will it automatically switch to external power without a skip when the internals die, like the 671?

[JasonSobel]

I know with the ACM 671, one should run the pad on at -20 db, and run the mics fully hot (no pad). I bet if you ran your mics with no pad, and set the 661 at -18 db, you should eliminate your brickwall problem (probably check with Doug on this). I believe that the 661 has 3 different pad settings, so you can always have a lower pad setting on the deck for quieter, non-rock shows. Probably just take a bit of time to match the new deck with you existing setup.

Please keep us updated, thanks!

maybe I wasn't clear.  I did run the -18dB setting on the PMD-661.  and I did NOT use the pad on the mics.  and this was the result.  I think the beyers are more sensitive than other mics that are "typically" used, and thus I should use the pad on the mics to lower the signal before it gets to the PMD-661.

[Since85]

Thanks for the clarification, very interesting! I wonder what other mics might have this issue with the 661?

Please keep us informed with your progress, most appreciated!
 

[JasonSobel]

here's the full 16 bit version:
http://www.archive.org/details/clubdelf2009-03-20.ck930.flac16

and the 24 bit version:
http://www.archive.org/details/clubdelf2009-03-20.ck930.flac24

and I'll reiterate, the brickwalling is very minor, and essentially is inaudible, because it only occurred for very brief moments when the snare drum was hit.  That tells me that the signal from the mics was probably only a few dB hotter than the deck could handle.  Which leads me to believe that with the -15dB pad on the mics, the signal will be fine going into the deck, and no brickwalling issues.  then, it will just be a matter of choosing the right gain setting on the PMD-661 (0, -6, -12, or -18) to get appropriate levels.

and regarding what other mics might have similar issues... most mic manufacturers publish sensitivity specs (in mV/pA).    I just took a quick look at a few "common" mics...

Neumann km184 = 15mV/Pa
Schoeps mk4/cmc6 = 13mV/Pa
Microtech Gefell m200 = 13 mV/Pa
Busman Audio BSC-1 = 9 or 10 mV/Pa
beyerdynamic CK930 = 30mV/Pa

so from this short list, it seems as though the beyers are definitely a good deal more sensitive than other mics that might be used.  Because of this, the signal coming out of the beyers would be a good deal hotter.  And because I am just barely brickwalling, I would guess that most mics could be used (without engaging the pad on the mics) with no problems of brickwalling the PMD-661.

[JasonSobel]

ok, I have some more testing results.

First, the battery test.  This was done using 4 energizer "max" AA batteries.  phantom power being supplied to two beyerdynamic CK930 mics (4.6mA current draw).

Because I only had one bar left on the battery power at setbreak last night, I switched to 4 new AA's for set 2.
Last night's set 2 went 80 minutes.  I was running 24/48 to a Sandisk Ultra II sdhc card.
Today, I decide to continue with these batteries to see how long it would go.
I set it up in my living room, this time running 24/96 to my 16gb PNY sdhc (class 4) card.

I just looked over, and it was dead.  the unit was off.  On the PNY card, I now have a 24/96 file that is 81 minutes.

So, for battery life with my mics, I get ~160 minutes of run time.  2 hours and 40 minutes.
That's less than I was hoping for, but not terrible considering the current draw of these mics.
Based on these results, I just ordered the Tekkeon mp3450 battery that was discussed earlier in this thread.  With 10AH at the 5v setting, that should be plenty for a regular show.  I'll do full battery testing again once I get the mp3450.

And, concurrent with the battery test was the 24/96 onto the PNY card test.  It went smoothly, with no problems.  No hiccups or anything like that.  Which I'm very pleased with.  And the file closed down with no errors when the batteries died (as expected, because it was the internal batteries).  With an external battery, I might not expect the same behavior if the plug is suddenly pulled, because the deck isn't expecting power to be lost.

But I know that at least one other person here had some issues with 24/96 onto a Class 4 card.  At this point, I see no trouble with it.  Hopefully we'll get to hear about more experiences as more people get this deck.

[kbergend]

You should actually get significantly longer run time with a set of good rechargeable NiMH batteries than with alkalines.  Even if the rated capacity is the same, NiMH will last longer in high drain situations due to their lower internal resistance.

[JasonSobel]

I didn't know that.  However, the couple of times a year that I will need to use the internals, I will likely be using alkalines (because I'll be using the external battery most of the time, and I don't own a set of a AA rechargeable NiMH's).  So for me, that 2:40 run time is a good reference.  But maybe I should look into getting a set of NiMH's as well.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I get more than double the run time using nimh than good alkaline batteries.  The Sanyo 2700 Nimh runs my 660 for more than 5 hours...

[flintstone]

Note that the PMD660 is completely different from the PMD661.
(Well, they are both made by Marantz.)  So the battery life of
660 (feeding phantom power to mics?) is not related to the 661.

The point about NiMH cells ability to keep voltage high for
longer, while the Alkaline cells' voltage slowly declines, is a
valid point. 

Flintstone

[dennisrtyler]

I didn't know that.  However, the couple of times a year that I will need to use the internals, I will likely be using alkalines (because I'll be using the external battery most of the time, and I don't own a set of a AA rechargeable NiMH's).  So for me, that 2:40 run time is a good reference.  But maybe I should look into getting a set of NiMH's as well.

or, for those couple of times a year, you could simply go with the e2 lithiums and not have to worry at all.

[skaggs]

Hey all,

I got a full Los Lobos (bout 2 hours) show on 4 duracell AA's, just running as a bit bucket out of an apogee minime.  Granted it was about 2 hours, and i was not using the pre-amp.  listeng to it on them right now.  Thursday i got about 30 minutes of a PBS show, as i did not know that NiMH do not hold a charge.  i charged them about 2 weeks prior.  luckily i was running my p2 as well.

how close to showtime do you all charge those things (NiMH)?

ran 24/48 into a 16 gig Sandisc Ultra II, all seems well.   

i am planning on running mk4>661 next week for steep canyon rangers.  anybody have any advice for the pad setting?  thanks

[TomR]

(Hey all,



how close to showtime do you all charge those things (NiMH)?)


Hi All

NiMHs are well known for loss of charge whilst sitting around doing nothing - for maximum charge its probably best to charge within 24 hours of use.  You might want to try Panasonic Infinium or Sanyo Eneloop brands of NiMHs.  The manufacturers claim these batteries maintain most of their charge for 12 months.  They are ideal for occasional useage of digital cameras and such like.

I use both (8 Sanyo and 4 Panasonic) but not had chance to check their claim to fame - too busy recording and having to change batteries within hours/days rather than months.  !00% use on naturerecording - I love my 661.

Cheers
TomR

[newplanet7]

Note that the PMD660 is completely different from the PMD661.
(Well, they are both made by Marantz.)  So the battery life of
660 (feeding phantom power to mics?) is not related to the 661.

The point about NiMH cells ability to keep voltage high for
longer, while the Alkaline cells' voltage slowly declines, is a
valid point. 

Flintstone

Both deck draw just about the same amount of power by themselves.
4w (660) vs 4.2w (661)

[Javier Cinakowski]

yeah, I am not sure what Flinestones point was.  I think we all realize the decks are not identical, though similar.  That said, nimh are clearly a better technology for this type of device, regaurdless if it is a 660 or 661...

I can record a typical show right through setbreak and still have enough juice to listen to the entire show on the way home...  (w/ my 660)]
W/ alkalines I'll be lucky to make it through a set...