Topic: Stock FR2LE vs. Busman T-Mod FR2LE true side by side comparison

[Will_S]

Its about which one sounds better to each of you who took the time to listen. If you can't tell the difference, great. I don't have a problem with it. That just means you don't have to worry about getting your gear modified. If you can hear a difference and like it, well you now have an option for a mod. Also, if you can hear a difference and hear something you don't like, then you know what mod not to get.

Well, but as the last attempt at a comparison shows (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,111772.0/all.html), if you listen long and hard enough for a difference, you are likely to perceive one.  But the difference you perceive may have nothing to do with the mod.  For instance when comparing the sets of clips, basically no one was able to correctly identify modded vs. non modded clips.  In 9/10 possible pairings, people wrongly grouped stock and modded clips together.  So whatever people thought they were hearing, it wasn't the mod.

Don't worry about whether that last test was imperfect because there were short clips (it was), just realize that lots of folks confidently stated they heard the effects of the mod, when in fact they didn't.  

So I don't doubt that you perceive differences when you listen to what you know is the modded track and what you know is the stock track.  But if you are really hearing the effects of the mod, you should be able to tell the clips apart in blind listening as well.

Likewise Chris' comments may well reflect (be influenced by) the knowledge he gained from the measurements, it's too bad he didn't describe what he heard before measuring the tracks.

[willndmb]

Perhaps the real test would be to use dissimilar recordings made under different circumstances.  If the only way that differences can be heard is by comparing identical recordings, which won't happen in actual use, then there's no point in the mods.  (Yes, I'm being provocative!)

yes and no
although i think its good to see if you can tell from different recordings
i also am not sure i can tell until i hear the same recording with each
as i have stated i can hear small differences between this comp and the one will did - not enough for me to justify the mod though with my bank roll right now

[Church-Audio]

Its about which one sounds better to each of you who took the time to listen. If you can't tell the difference, great. I don't have a problem with it. That just means you don't have to worry about getting your gear modified. If you can hear a difference and like it, well you now have an option for a mod. Also, if you can hear a difference and hear something you don't like, then you know what mod not to get.

Well, but as the last attempt at a comparison shows (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,111772.0/all.html), if you listen long and hard enough for a difference, you are likely to perceive one.  But the difference you perceive may have nothing to do with the mod.  For instance when comparing the sets of clips, basically no one was able to correctly identify modded vs. non modded clips.  In 9/10 possible pairings, people wrongly grouped stock and modded clips together.  So whatever people thought they were hearing, it wasn't the mod.

Don't worry about whether that last test was imperfect because there were short clips (it was), just realize that lots of folks confidently stated they heard the effects of the mod, when in fact they didn't.  

So I don't doubt that you perceive differences when you listen to what you know is the modded track and what you know is the stock track.  But if you are really hearing the effects of the mod, you should be able to tell the clips apart in blind listening as well.

Likewise Chris' comments may well reflect (be influenced by) the knowledge he gained from the measurements, it's too bad he didn't describe what he heard before measuring the tracks.

I actually did listen to the tracks first for the reason you mention. I did not want my tests to influence the results. I found that the track b did sound better it was smoother in the top end track A sounded harsh by comparison. There was such a difference I thought the mics must have been moved! But I have been assured that is not the case. So as far as my evaluation goes I feel I am 100% accurate there was differences and track B did sound better.. I did listen to the Floyd tracks but they sounded so bad to my ears I did not bother trying to even evaluate them.

Chris

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I still can't download the samples.  Would someone please post a graph that shows the difference?

You can download them here (one big 169.5 MB zip file) if the original link doesn't work for you:
http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/FR2LEcompTNJedd.zip

THANK YOU!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I don't know what FUD is either, but Chris has not once said anything in this thread to degrade you or your products (not that I am even sure what products you sell)

Get your facts straight.  I sell nothing.

[page]

Have we done any measurements in adverse conditions? (minor or major overloading of both sensitivity settings, and minor/major overloading of the gain to the A/D.) We've got 2 possible places to hit the wall, did anyone try playing wtih those?

I was at Umphrey's last night and someone mentioned that they thought this was an area to test that (it seemed) we hadn't. It could be that there are minor differences accousticly in normal circumstances, but there are bigger differences when we start to get to the edge of normal operation where clipping or overload would occur. Food for thought.

[digifish_music]

I don't know what FUD is either, but Chris has not once said anything in this thread to degrade you or your products (not that I am even sure what products you sell)

Get your facts straight.  I sell nothing.

My facts were straight, didn't I say "not that I am even sure what products you sell"

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I don't know what FUD is either, but Chris has not once said anything in this thread to degrade you or your products (not that I am even sure what products you sell)

Get your facts straight.  I sell nothing.

My facts were straight, didn't I say "not that I am even sure what products you sell"

You implied I sell product and therefore have a profit motive.  You don't have a clue.

[digifish_music]

I'm not interested in someone "putting me to the test" to see if I can really hear the difference. Here are the observations I initially wrote to rastasean before I even started this thread. This just explains where I heard differences.

T-Mod- Definitly makes the things more clear sounding and distinct.
The high end frequencies are especially clean compared to the non mod.
Sounds where there is a noticable difference are the sounds of the banjo
and mandolin. Not only the sound of the instrument, but you can more clearly
hear the sound of the strumming. Also, the vocals are more clear especially
the "s" sounds.

The obvious difference is the cymbals and drums, percussion in general.
The other big difference are the vocals. You can hear them much more clearly
and detailed on the the T-mod version. The bass on the non-mod is more prominent
and in your face. The T-mod tames is a bit, making it more clear and tight.

You see, perception involves expectation, if you really can hear these differences, and they are as clear as you perceive, then you should be able to hear them in a blind comparison surely? I am not trying to embarrass you, just raise this mod/non-mod thing to a objectively verifiable level. When people wanted graphs and specs, 'the human ear' was held up as the gold standard, so let's use the human ear then, but do it in a way that removes subjective bias.

digifish

Test your perceptions here...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,113482.0.html

[digifish_music]

Perhaps the real test would be to use dissimilar recordings made under different circumstances.  If the only way that differences can be heard is by comparing identical recordings, which won't happen in actual use, then there's no point in the mods.  (Yes, I'm being provocative!)

I partially agree. I think a better test would be to do identical recordings across a variety of situations/circumstances. The more I think about it, this is really a test of how these recorders capture the sound of my home stereo, which is neither fancy by any means nor a realistic use of this recorder. It would be best to do a variety of things like various music, ambient recordings, nature recordings, etc.

So did you post an answer as to which group of recordings A or B was modded?

digifish

[rastasean]

Tenesejedd is the one who knows the answers. I would PM him for the answers. I left my answers at home or else I would write you.

[newplanet7]

Thanks for the answers Tennessee Jed.
I chose the t-mod for both samples.
Great test.

[digifish_music]

Thanks for the answers Tennessee Jed.
I chose the t-mod for both samples.
Great test.

There was a 25% chance you would do that (fairly likely), but now there is no convincing you that you heard something So can you pick the modded version 7 times or more?

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,113482.0.html

digifish

[newplanet7]

Not sure and don't really care to try.
I'm satisfied with this thread.

[Will_S]

Thanks for the answers Tennessee Jed.
I chose the t-mod for both samples.
Great test.

There was a 25% chance you would do that (fairly likely), but now there is no convincing you that you heard something So can you pick the modded version 7 times or more?

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,113482.0.html

digifish

To be fair, sitting and picking out subtle differences 7 times is a pretty time consuming task.  I'd be somewhat convinced if someone could pick out the 3 or 4 most revealing cuts (to their ears) and get them all right.  You couldn't publish it in a journal, but it would be enough to convince me they more likely than not could hear a differences.