Multiple External Microphones?

[Church-Audio]

Gossling have you ever recorded a concert before?

Chris

[gossling]

Gossling have you ever recorded a concert before?

Nope.

I think the reason I am looking at preamps and mixers before I've even bought my microphones and recorder is that I want to make sure my choices will be as versatile and functional as possible.  I want to have my plan all worked out beforehand.  I don't want to regret my choices down the road.  I am definitely not afraid to spend the extra bucks on the R-09HR, if it actually provides better results for my purposes.  I don't think it will.  The internal mics are more versatile on the H2 and the line-ins are basically equal. 

I wish I could hear some recording comparisons of MT2 with external microphones vs. Sound Device or a sound card connected to a computer using the same microphones.  If I can't tell the difference, then I would know for sure that the MT2's preamps and A/D converter are sufficient and meet my expectations.

So a computer is better for dealing with many tracks.  But if I'm dealing with just 2-4 track recording, would a computer/laptop be any more effective during the actual recording than a recorder? I have a computer to do post-processing on after the fact.  I will never be recording straight to mp3.  I'll probably go 24-bit wav. 


Any microphone recommendations to be used with a MT2 or that E-MU (or other mixer) -> H2? Could I get equally good sounding results with battery/plug-in powered microphones into an R-09HR? Basically, which would I be better off with in terms of sound quality:
1. Battery/plug-in powered condenser -> R-09HR
2. Condenser -> MT2

Are battery/plug-in powered mics ever acceptable outside of field recording situations (e.g. home recording)? Are studio-oriented microphones ever acceptable in the field? I'm sure there is some overlap among microphones.  Any pointers on what specs I should be looking at when determining if a microphone could be used for both? For home recording, I'm leaning towards a small-diaphragm (because most can also be used for live sound reinforcement.  Would any of these be acceptable for field recording?

If I was recording a concert in which I was performing and had access to the soundboard, which of these recorders would you recommend? The MT2 has digital in...is this important for this application?

Thanks

[Church-Audio]

Gossling have you ever recorded a concert before?

Nope.

I think the reason I am looking at preamps and mixers before I've even bought my microphones and recorder is that I want to make sure my choices will be as versatile and functional as possible.  I want to have my plan all worked out beforehand.  I don't want to regret my choices down the road.  I am definitely not afraid to spend the extra bucks on the R-09HR, if it actually provides better results for my purposes.  I don't think it will.  The internal mics are more versatile on the H2 and the line-ins are basically equal. 

I wish I could hear some recording comparisons of MT2 with external microphones vs. Sound Device or a sound card connected to a computer using the same microphones.  If I can't tell the difference, then I would know for sure that the MT2's preamps and A/D converter are sufficient and meet my expectations.

So a computer is better for dealing with many tracks.  But if I'm dealing with just 2-4 track recording, would a computer/laptop be any more effective during the actual recording than a recorder? I have a computer to do post-processing on after the fact.  I will never be recording straight to mp3.  I'll probably go 24-bit wav. 


Any microphone recommendations to be used with a MT2 or that E-MU (or other mixer) -> H2? Could I get equally good sounding results with battery/plug-in powered microphones into an R-09HR? Basically, which would I be better off with in terms of sound quality:
1. Battery/plug-in powered condenser -> R-09HR
2. Condenser -> MT2

Are battery/plug-in powered mics ever acceptable outside of field recording situations (e.g. home recording)? Are studio-oriented microphones ever acceptable in the field? I'm sure there is some overlap among microphones.  Any pointers on what specs I should be looking at when determining if a microphone could be used for both? For home recording, I'm leaning towards a small-diaphragm (because most can also be used for live sound reinforcement.  Would any of these be acceptable for field recording?

If I was recording a concert in which I was performing and had access to the soundboard, which of these recorders would you recommend? The MT2 has digital in...is this important for this application?

Thanks

My best advice is to get a good pair of mics that will work with a battery box and a r09hr and see what is possible with two mics before you go spending all kinds of money on gear. Grasshopper one must learn to crawl before one can walk  I don't know you skill level but as a sound engineer I would never do a mix down type recording with no way to monitor was was going to my recorder. And that's not possible with most live concerts. And I have heard some great tapes with just two mics.. I would spend the most on your recorder then get a good set of mics and a battery box. Don't waste your money on Zoom products to be honest they are junk.

[gossling]

My best advice is to get a good pair of mics that will work with a battery box and a r09hr and see what is possible with two mics before you go spending all kinds of money on gear. Grasshopper one must learn to crawl before one can walk  I don't know you skill level but as a sound engineer I would never do a mix down type recording with no way to monitor was was going to my recorder. And that's not possible with most live concerts. And I have heard some great tapes with just two mics.. I would spend the most on your recorder then get a good set of mics and a battery box. Don't waste your money on Zoom products to be honest they are junk.

If I really wanted to go minimalist, wouldn't the best option be MT2 + condensers? Especially since I'm planning to use my mics at home in addition to in the field.  Any recommendations for this setup?

[Church-Audio]

My best advice is to get a good pair of mics that will work with a battery box and a r09hr and see what is possible with two mics before you go spending all kinds of money on gear. Grasshopper one must learn to crawl before one can walk  I don't know you skill level but as a sound engineer I would never do a mix down type recording with no way to monitor was was going to my recorder. And that's not possible with most live concerts. And I have heard some great tapes with just two mics.. I would spend the most on your recorder then get a good set of mics and a battery box. Don't waste your money on Zoom products to be honest they are junk.

If I really wanted to go minimalist, wouldn't the best option be MT2 + condensers? Especially since I'm planning to use my mics at home in addition to in the field.  Any recommendations for this setup?

If your trying to use full size mics you cant use a MT2 because the  MT2 does put out 48 volts but the current is low and the preamp is pretty noisy if you want a quiet recorder the best out there under $400 is the R09HR and if you want to be able to record shows in the open and privately then you want small mics. Not large ones that must only be used for "open taping" If you want a versatile rig GOOD set of mics + battery box + R09HR = Good sound with little hassle. In the end you can buy what ever you want but that's my recommendation. You want this complicated setup but you have never taped a show learn to tape first then expand your collection of gear the gear I suggested will be a good foundation and you will be able to use this gear in any situation and get good sound. There are my mics the ca-14 they are $129 a pair you can also check out AT 853 mics and DPA 4060 or 4061. You can spend between $129 to $900 on a set of small mics. Just because they are small does not mean they will not sound great. If you want large condenser mics you can spend between $100 per pair and $6000 per pair..What do you want to record exactly when your at home and at concerts?

Chris

[cybergaloot]

Are battery/plug-in powered mics ever acceptable outside of field recording situations (e.g. home recording)? Are studio-oriented microphones ever acceptable in the field? I'm sure there is some overlap among microphones.  Any pointers on what specs I should be looking at when determining if a microphone could be used for both? For home recording, I'm leaning towards a small-diaphragm (because most can also be used for live sound reinforcement.  Would any of these be acceptable for field recording?

For live onstage mics most people use dynamic mics for vocals and often everything else. Condenser mics don't like to be handled. They are more sensitive and would pickup handling noise. Most dynamic mics don't need phantom power and can handle rough handling. That's not a condenser mic that Roger Daltry was swinging by the cable at Woodstock! You'll see some bands occasionally using condenser mics for mic'ing amps or for drums overheads. You can sing into a condenser, just not hand hold it. Condensers don't like people blowing into them either. They also don't like moisture. Of course, like everything in the world there are exceptions, this is in general.

So, yes, you can use your condenser mics in the studio. Most of the mics we use in the field ARE studio mics. I bet like most people, you will become very protective of your condenser mics. You want a matched pair if possible.

I can't speak intelligently about the merits of large diaphragm mics over small diaphragm. From what I've read I gather that large diaphragm mics tend to be more sensitive. Its NOT a matter of big diaphragms handling lows better or small diaphragms handling highs better.

Here's a suggestion, go to the Live Music Archive (archive.org) and read the text files for a bunch of the shows. Most will list the gear used. You will see patterns. Maybe copy and past those lists to a text document to review later. You'll find the same makes and models of gear over an over again, often in the same combinations. Those are the combinations that people have found that work well. Look up the gear. Often the listing is cryptic looking but usually if you plug in the term in Google, you'll find the gear. Some you will eliminate because its more expensive than your budget will allow. What is your budget?  

Another thing you can do is Google a model number and see if it shows up associated with a live recording. If it doesn't, why not? Might be new, but probably because its not good for that use. if it comes back associated with a lot of live recordings, its good field gear. Maybe not good for you though.

Once you have your list of affordable field recording gear, then you have to compare features. A spread sheet can help with that. Features that matter to you along one axis, models down the other. Put check marks where the features match the model. The evaluate and cull out the stuff that doesn't meet your criteria. Finally search the web for reviews of your short list.

Don't forget to include the cost of the other stuff you'll need like stands, cables, shock mounts, adapters, bags to carry all that stuff around, etc. Those costs mound up fast. And some of what we use you wont find in a Musician's Friend catalog. For stands many of us use stands intended for photographer's lights. Why? HEIGHT! We are trying to get into clean air well above the crowd's heads and away from their yapping mouths. If you don't get your mics up, you will soon hate everyone around you at concerts. They are also usually lighter than standard onstage mic stands. Get a B&H Photo catalog to shop stands but search the web before buying from them. They are good people with fair prices but often you can beat their price. Many of us use custom made mic cables. Commercial cables will work, just don't buy cheap cables, they will bite you in the end. If you get cables from Guitar Center, buy the good ones! Not the stuff on bargain basement sales. Use shock mounts and good windscreens on your mics when possible. Reason? Why have your recording messed up because some yahoo bumps into your stand or there is an air conditioner draft blowing on your mics. It happens.  

Oh, mic specs. SPL rating if you are going to be recording loud shows. And "loud" doesn't mean heavy metal. I've seen bluegrass bands that were blasting. What frequency range can it handle and how well does it do that across the spectrum? Flat across the board is good but some folks like a bump at one end or the other. What level phantom power does it need. I heard of one model mic that required MORE than 48V. Obviously that would be a problem.
More:
http://emusician.com/tutorials/emusic_mic_specs_demystified/
http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/broadcasting_reading_microphone_specifications/

Just Google "microphone specs"

[cybergaloot]

There are my mics the ca-14 they are $129 a pair you can also check out AT 853 mics and DPA 4060 or 4061. You can spend between $129 to $900 on a set of small mics.

I've tested the CA-14-cardioids and am currently testing the CA-14-omni's. They are great mics, well worth the cost. Couple that with a CA-9100 (better than the CA-9000 I have) and a R-09HR and you have a great affordable and very portable rig for live recordings.

To clarify something Chris said, You will EITHER need a battery box to power the mics OR a preamp like the CA-9100 to power the mics. You don't need both. Going with the mics and the battery box (Chris makes a inexpensive small one) into the R-09 would be cheaper but if you can afford the CA-9100, consider getting one. It gives you more control. A CA-9000 will also power the mics if you want to save a few bucks but the 9100 IS better.

[gossling]

Sorry, I should have specified what I will be doing. 
At home: strings, piano, various woodwinds, percussion (not rock drums).  Usually not simultaneously.  The most I see myself recording at once would be 5-6 instrumentalists.  I will be using up to four microphones (if I can fit them all into my setup) at home.  I could probably get by with two, but I think my setup would be more versatile with two extra slots.
Live recording: jazz-type volume and setting, classical music (symphonic and chamber), occasionally a rock concert.  I'm hoping for good quality in the jazz-esque and classical recordings but I doncare about quality for rock concerts.  I will probably be recording both stealth and open, but my stealth recordings don't need to be great.  By "don't have to be great" I still want to hear all the instruments, but it doesn't have to sound semi-pro or anything.  I will never be using more than two microphones for live sound recording.  For live sound recording I would definitely prefer to not have to bring a preamp or mixer along.  I will never be an official taper of these concerts.  I just want to record what I hear and review it myself (and maybe friends and family) later.
Live recording with mixing board: I just want to be able to feed the information the mixing board going into the mixing board to the recorder and record straight to line-in.
Live sound reinforcement: I really just need one microphone to reinforce my cello in live sound situations (when I'm performing, that is). 

The home recordings would be tricky with only two mics so, unless there are just 1-3 instrumentalists, I probably won't record individuals.  Do you think I could get by recording 6 musicians with just two microphones? Of course, it depends on the quality I'm expecting, but I want the average consumer to not be able to tell that I was only using two microphones. 

If the MT2's preamps are noisy then I definitely won't buy it.  I wasn't aware that they were (for balanced sources).  Also, wouldn't || microphone -> preamp -> H2 || be just as effective as || microphone -> battery box -> R09HR || ? Which would last longer in terms of battery life? By battery box, did you mean 48v or 9v?

I couldn't find the CA-14 or a 48v phantom power battery box on the CA's ebay page.  If someone could link it to me that would be great.  What power do these microphones accept? Also, the microphones I did see on CA's ebay page look similar to the DPA's which can be used for live sound reinforcement.  Can these also be used for live sound reinforcement? How far can you separate each microphone of the stereo pair? Are these CA mics acceptable in the studio? If I was double miking my cello, I could probably use one of these microphones up close and personal and one to capture the airy sound of the instrument. 

I'll start checking out archive.org, thanks for the recommendation.

[Church-Audio]

Sorry, I should have specified what I will be doing. 
At home: strings, piano, various woodwinds, percussion (not rock drums).  Usually not simultaneously.  The most I see myself recording at once would be 5-6 instrumentalists.  I will be using up to four microphones (if I can fit them all into my setup) at home.  I could probably get by with two, but I think my setup would be more versatile with two extra slots.
Live recording: jazz-type volume and setting, classical music (symphonic and chamber), occasionally a rock concert.  I'm hoping for good quality in the jazz-esque and classical recordings but I doncare about quality for rock concerts.  I will probably be recording both stealth and open, but my stealth recordings don't need to be great.  By "don't have to be great" I still want to hear all the instruments, but it doesn't have to sound semi-pro or anything.  I will never be using more than two microphones for live sound recording.  For live sound recording I would definitely prefer to not have to bring a preamp or mixer along.  I will never be an official taper of these concerts.  I just want to record what I hear and review it myself (and maybe friends and family) later.
Live recording with mixing board: I just want to be able to feed the information the mixing board going into the mixing board to the recorder and record straight to line-in.
Live sound reinforcement: I really just need one microphone to reinforce my cello in live sound situations (when I'm performing, that is). 

The home recordings would be tricky with only two mics so, unless there are just 1-3 instrumentalists, I probably won't record individuals.  Do you think I could get by recording 6 musicians with just two microphones? Of course, it depends on the quality I'm expecting, but I want the average consumer to not be able to tell that I was only using two microphones. 

If the MT2's preamps are noisy then I definitely won't buy it.  I wasn't aware that they were (for balanced sources).  Also, wouldn't || microphone -> preamp -> H2 || be just as effective as || microphone -> battery box -> R09HR || ? Which would last longer in terms of battery life? By battery box, did you mean 48v or 9v?

I couldn't find the CA-14 or a 48v phantom power battery box on the CA's ebay page.  If someone could link it to me that would be great.  What power do these microphones accept? Also, the microphones I did see on CA's ebay page look similar to the DPA's which can be used for live sound reinforcement.  Can these also be used for live sound reinforcement? How far can you separate each microphone of the stereo pair? Are these CA mics acceptable in the studio? If I was double miking my cello, I could probably use one of these microphones up close and personal and one to capture the airy sound of the instrument. 

I'll start checking out archive.org, thanks for the recommendation.

This is what I recommend my 9100 preamp + my ca-14 omni mics. I will pm you with a price. Please dont just take my word for it listen to samples of the mics and decide for your self I am also a musician so I understand your application.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,108829.0.html You can also get on the T.S loaner section and try these mics out before you buy. The DPA 4060 would also be a great mic both could be powered with a battery box or my 99100 preamp the R09HR is a great recorder the preamp is very quiet if you want even less noise for your application my 9100 with the HR will provide a dead silent recording option. But again dont just take my word for it I sell this gear so I am a bit biased but both the DPA and my mics would be good depending on how much your willing to spend.
http://yodaslai.ipower.com/bradfordvilleblues/media/ChrisDuarte-2008-11-22-CA-14omni-Set1--3.wav

Chris

[Ozpeter]

Do you think I could get by recording 6 musicians with just two microphones?

Many classical recordings are made with just a single stereo pair, if a natural balance can be obtained.  (If there is a natural balance, then it's not up to the recording engineer to mess with it).

Something that might interest you in that respect -

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=11501

[gossling]

Those H2 open recordings more than meet my needs.  Both the symphony orchestra one from Ozpeter and the bands from cybergaloot with the H2 alone are great for me.  I can't see myself ever complaining with that kind of quality for live recording. 

That CA-9100 is still definitely an option for the battery power alone.  How long is this supposed to last on battery power? I assume this would be fine for home recording also. 

Ozpeter, do you think I could record a cello sonata (cello + piano) in a recital hall (or church) with just one stereo pair and get decent results? I've seen videos of professional cellists being professionally recorded and it looks like they have eight or nine microphones! I'm guessing they don't actually use all of these in the final mix, but it still seems like a lot of work to pick up these two instruments' complex sound radiation.  Also, is artificial reverb for classical instruments an automatic no-no?

Thanks everyone!

[cybergaloot]

That CA-9100 is still definitely an option for the battery power alone.  How long is this supposed to last on battery power? I assume this would be fine for home recording also. 

The CA-9000 runs about 20 (or was it 40?) hours on one 9V battery powering the CA-11 mics. I'd bet the CA-9100 will have about the same battery life. Its plenty of life. You can run a whole day with no issues.

The H2 however runs about 2 hours on two AA batteries. You may get a bit more with Li-ions. If you use the backlight or the monitor, that cuts into the battery life. I set mine to run the backlight for 30 seconds and no monitor unless I'm using the wall-wart. The monitor function is useless in the field for me anyway, I can't hear it. It is cool to listen to the shows on the way home though with a pair of headphones or earbuds. You could hook the H2 to a battery pack for longer runs. I ~think~ it will seamlessly fail over to the internal batteries if the externals get too low. I can't say for sure since I've never run that way but I have had the wall-wart come unplugged and it switched to the internals with no problems.

Also the H2 will make a file up to 2GB then stop and start again on a new file. There will be a gap. For most shows that isn't a problem. I record a set, save the file and record the next set. Most sets I record run 90 minutes. If you run 4 channel or max quality you may start bumping into that barrier though.

[ghellquist]

Ozpeter, do you think I could record a cello sonata (cello + piano) in a recital hall (or church) with just one stereo pair and get decent results? I've seen videos of professional cellists being professionally recorded and it looks like they have eight or nine microphones! I'm guessing they don't actually use all of these in the final mix, but it still seems like a lot of work to pick up these two instruments' complex sound radiation.  Also, is artificial reverb for classical instruments an automatic no-no?

Thanks everyone!

Not Ozpeter, but doing quite a bit of classical recordings. And, yes, definitely, a stereo pair of microphones is a very good way to record cello plus piano. It can give totally stunning results. I often record full symphony orchestras, soloists or choirs with basically only two mics.

People coming from the pop recording school of things generally has difficulties recording classical music. They believe that every instrument has to be separated from each other and miced with its own mic. Not so here. Most of us in the classical realm instead work with a good room and careful placement of players and microphones. Two microphones for mainpart of the sound. Perhaps a few extra for ambience or to improve the definition of a few instruments.

The issue with two mic recordings is that it takes skill to become really good. You need a bit of experience and has to spend a good bit of listening to find just the right place for the musicians and the microphones. How far behind the cello do you place the piano? How far back on the stage do you place the cello? Exactly where do you place the microphones? How high? What mic setup should you use in this exact situation? But once everything is setup, press record and let the players do the work. No mixing needed. Interestingly, in this setup the most important tool is ears and listening. On the other hand, for a perfectly useable archive recording, simply place the mics where they usually go and press record.

So what you should do once you get your recording equipment is to experiment a lot with placement, record a lot and listen even more. Listen and learn to recognize what sounds good to your ears in different situations. Listen to a lot of recordings done by others as well. And decide on your own ideals. Do you like the sound of the cello close up - the artist breathing and the bow jumping on the strings? Or do you preferr the sound in a good natural reverb? Both are valid but taste varies.

Gunnar.

PS: artificial reverbs, why not? It takes a lot of listening to get it right though. So less is better.

[cybergaloot]

Plus up close mic'ing of acoustic pianos is very tricky from what I've read. Best to back up a bit.

[gossling]

Not Ozpeter, but doing quite a bit of classical recordings. And, yes, definitely, a stereo pair of microphones is a very good way to record cello plus piano. It can give totally stunning results. I often record full symphony orchestras, soloists or choirs with basically only two mics.

People coming from the pop recording school of things generally has difficulties recording classical music. They believe that every instrument has to be separated from each other and miced with its own mic. Not so here. Most of us in the classical realm instead work with a good room and careful placement of players and microphones. Two microphones for mainpart of the sound. Perhaps a few extra for ambience or to improve the definition of a few instruments.

The issue with two mic recordings is that it takes skill to become really good. You need a bit of experience and has to spend a good bit of listening to find just the right place for the musicians and the microphones. How far behind the cello do you place the piano? How far back on the stage do you place the cello? Exactly where do you place the microphones? How high? What mic setup should you use in this exact situation? But once everything is setup, press record and let the players do the work. No mixing needed. Interestingly, in this setup the most important tool is ears and listening. On the other hand, for a perfectly useable archive recording, simply place the mics where they usually go and press record.

So what you should do once you get your recording equipment is to experiment a lot with placement, record a lot and listen even more. Listen and learn to recognize what sounds good to your ears in different situations. Listen to a lot of recordings done by others as well. And decide on your own ideals. Do you like the sound of the cello close up - the artist breathing and the bow jumping on the strings? Or do you preferr the sound in a good natural reverb? Both are valid but taste varies.

Gunnar.

PS: artificial reverbs, why not? It takes a lot of listening to get it right though. So less is better.

Very informative.  Thanks!

Back to preamps for a second: Nady DMP-2: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Nady-DMP2-Dual-Mic-PreAmp-?sku=180156

I'm a little weary that it has absolutely no reviews anywhere that I could find.  How do those specs look? If this is any better than the R-09HR's external mic preamps, I'm happy.