Topic: Quiet Music

[gossling]

Hi,

I will be recording solo cello, cello + piano, and jazz/classical chamber music in a recital hall.  I will be using a stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers which require 48v phantom power.  My price range for everything outside of the microphones (recorder, preamp, phantom power, etc.) is about 500 US dollars.  I basically have three options:
1. Buy recorder that supplies phantom power
2. Use external preamp that supplies phantom power between microphones and recorder
3. Use phantom power box in between microphones and recorder.

I realize that most of the less expensive recorders do not provide 48v onboard, and the few that do (Microtrack and Zoom H4) are probably too noisy for the job.  Would it be wiser to just spend more money on a quieter recorder with two phantom powered inputs, and skip the external box? Any suggestions here? Fostex FR-2LE may be slightly out of my range, but if it's that good, I'll definitely go for it.

If I use a preamp, I can use almost any of these recorders, as most of their line-inputs are very good.  Any suggestions for battery-powered preamps/mixers with preamps that supply phantom power? I was looking at the Nady DMP-2, as it was the only inexpensive two channel battery powered preamp I could find, but people have said that it may not actually supply the full 48v.  And since I do not actually own the microphones yet, I cannot just buy one and test it.  If I got a non-battery powered preamp/mixer, could I use some sort of battery pack outside of it?

If I use a phantom power box (e.g. Rolls PB224), the mic preamps on whatever device I choose must be very quiet.  I would probably be limited to the Edirol R-09HR in my price range.  Maybe, I'd go for the Sony PCM-D50, but only if its preamps are really much better than those of the Edirol's.  Are the preamps of the R-09HR good enough for recording something as quiet as cello?

I have read this:
http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

But I'm not sure if I should trust it.  The Marantz PMD660 did not seem very quiet on a Transom review I read.  Should I be looking at the unweighted or A-weighted column?

I should probably mention that internal microphones are a plus for me.  I want to be able to record a lesson or practice session quickly and without hassle.

Thanks

[digifish_music]

Hi,

I will be recording solo cello, cello + piano, and jazz/classical chamber music in a recital hall. ... Any suggestions here? Fostex FR-2LE may be slightly out of my range, but if it's that good, I'll definitely go for it.

The Fostex FR-2LE would probably give you all you are asking for (except the internal mics).  An alternative may be the Sony PCM-D50, and you may be able to get away with just the internal mics if yo can get it in close to the performers.

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-sound-samples.html

the above page compares most recorders for cello and vocals FYI

digifish

[flintstone]

Raimund Specht's tests are trustworthy, with the caveat that they were conducted under a specific set of conditions (i.e., mic gain turned all the way up) that may or may be applicable to the environment you're recording in.   I find Specht's results match my own experience pretty closely.  It's a good idea to pay attention to the self-noise of a recorder when your subject is relatively quiet.  Recorder self noise is not as important a consideration when the band members (and some audience members) wear ear protection.

I think the environment you describe is perfect for a machine like the Fostex FR-2LE.  You'll have access to mains power, so battery life is not important.  You're recording in the open, so how well the machine fits down the front of your trousers is not an issue.  The FR-2LE can provide phantom power, and the FR-2LE's self-noise is very low.  The FR-2LE has its share of idiosyncrasies, but it sounds great!

Marantz has announced a new recorder called the PMD661.  It has the potential to be a rival to the FR-2LE, but we won't know what the machine sounds like until January.  If you can delay your purchase, I'd suggest waiting until we know more about the PMD661.

Check out Stephanie Wingfield's web site, http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/index.html for sample recordings of unamplified classical music made with most of today's pocket recorders.

Flintstone

edit: Digifish beat me to it!

[gossling]

you may be able to get away with just the internal mics if yo can get it in close to the performers.

Wait, the internals are that good? If they are, I may just buy the Sony for now, and if and when I need higher quality recordings with pro microphones, connect the Rolls PB224 phantom power.  But I must say I liked the Tascam DR-1 as much if not more than the D50 (especially percussion). 

The D50's preamps are plenty quiet for me, I should think.  Also, its battery life is phenomenal.  Just so you know, battery life is a factor for me, as I won't always have a power source from the wall. 

I study those Wingfield samples all the time.  It's hard to make a choice, since I can't really see all the positioning, the volumes are different sometimes, and the files are compressed.

The microphones I'm looking at are the low-end small diaphragm condensers: Studio Project C4, MXL 603s, AT 4041, Rode NT5, and Oktava MK-012 (if I can find a deal).  Maybe even a single DPA 4060.  Would these kick the Sony internal's ass? If so, I may just go with the Fostex.  I know it's off topic, but any other microphone recommendations?

Is there a way to power mixers like these, remotely?
http://www.mackie.com/products/402vlz3/
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX1002FX
With some sort of AC battery pack thing?

Thanks for the replies

[digifish_music]

Wait, the internals are that good? If they are, I may just buy the Sony for now, and if and when I need higher quality recordings with pro microphones, connect the Rolls PB224 phantom power.  But I must say I liked the Tascam DR-1 as much if not more than the D50 (especially percussion). 

...

The internals on the D50 are perhaps the second best internal mics on a portable, the Sony D1 being the best (but then again, if you are going to pay D1 sort of money you should probably spend it on separate pieces - mic preamp + recorder + mics).  The biggest issue you will have with the D50 is the lack of placement flexibility, however being a Rode NT4 user myself, on small ensembles etc, placing the D50 in a position that sounds good, shouldn't be a huge challenge.

Second, if you are new to recording then using the D50 will present you with a much less complicated learning curve...you only have mic angle and unit placement to play with...more than enough to keep an inquiring mind occupied

FYI - this may be useful to consider

http://www.bradlinder.net/2007/12/sony-pcm-d50-review.html

digifish

[carpa]

Gossling,
I think your needs are similar to mine, as I'm going to record piano solo or piano and violins or larger ensembles (sometimes).
I just received an Edirol R09HR, but as I didn't have so much time I only "played" with it for a little while.
The other choice would have been Sony, or waiting for the Marantz 661.At the end I went for HR for these reasons:

1)a recorder is important, but mics are more important, so it is better for me to spend the money I save into buying good mics.
New techs and price lowering of devices involves much more recorders than other gear, so- nothing being "forever"- mics are something you'll keep for a longer time. This not being a professional taper, of course.

2)Between the Sony and the Marantz I would wait for the latter. This would "solve" the entire question about Phantom Power/portability etc., while the Sony has better preamps than HR but the same limitations in terms of connections, with a noticeable price difference.

3) I did some experiments with my R09HR. The onboard mics are not bad; I compared them with a Sony ecm.907 (not a great mic, I know) and they are much better in terms of bass response and general clarity. So for rehearsal they are ok, but they would suite even for recording; if you can place the deck where  a mic should be placed I don't think hiss will be an issue.

4) External mics with internal preamp: I know the tests I've done are anything but "scientific", but I would say that mic preamp is quite good.
While I said HR's internals sound better than Sony ecm907, the hiss with this external was maybe slightly less. I know this mic pretty well (I used it with a dat Sony deck for "fast" recordings); it is noisy and low-sensitivit- not more than 3-4 mV-.
The recording level with the internals is just about the same I set with ecm907 in order to get a similar signal.

So, if you use a couple of good condensers (uncomparably lower noise and more sensitivity) and set the  sensitivity on "low" you'll still should have a much more clean gain than I have with this little mic, so you can get a good signal with lesser gain than the one you set with deck's internals.

5) Line-in directly: there is a possibility to go straight into line-in with a sensitive mic.This apply to loud sources, of course; I have tried with my little sony mic to do this, and the level is too low with the mic set at 60cm. distance from the strings.
But this mic is very low sensitive(3-4-mV). Probably good mics, going from 12 to 30 mV depending on the choice could provide a good output in order to go line-in with mics close to the source.

6)For what concerns the choice of mics, I'm waiting for advices too, even about the sensitivity, which - as Dsatz in another post wrote, could turn to be an issue overloading the input; this could possibly apply to the mic-input (not line probably) but maybe the 10 db pad featured on most mikes -expecially sensitive- could prevent this.

Please consider that I'm a musician and I'm far far far to be an expert in gear stuffs; I just reported some listening impressions and I'm waiting for advices too.
If something or all I've said is wrong PLEASE correct me. There's nothing worst than someone pretending to be an expert of what he doesn't know, and I don't want to give this impression.
c

[crispin]

Gossling and Carpa

Caveat: I am completely new to this field of recording

I think I have the same requirements as you...  except that I wanted very much to have a stand alone recorder that included good internal microphones.... and this turned me off the Edirol R09HR and onto the Sony D50.  So far - I have been very satisfied with the recordings of piano - and piano and viola that I have made...  and have no regrets concerning the extra cost.    It is clear that professionals will always use external microphones etc ...  so surely the route of Carpa will provide a better recording in the long run.  However I did not like the recording of the woodwind instruments on the Wingfield site made by the Edirol (using its internal microphones). 

If you are going to rely on the internal microphones on some occasions -  I suspect that it will be easier to get some stereo separation using the unidirectional microphone on the Sony - compared to the omnidirectional microphones on the other recorders -  but this statement is past my level of expertise.....

Whatever you decide - please keep us informed