Topic: Mic advice for R09 & Stealth live venue

[ralovely]

Hi all.

I taped a lot, years ago, then took a break, and might need to go back in the arena.

I already have an Edirol R09, and I'm on the market for mics.

Since I always need to be stealth or very very stealth (read metal detector, body search, and tight security), I'm lookig for mics without battery box.

Venues can be small clubs, mid size (1000-5000) or large (15000-20000).
Always crowded (read packed).
My prefered spot to record is glued to a loud speaker: crowd can hardly be heard like that, even if I have to sacrifice stereo (which usually doesn't really matter in live shows)

I'm currently oriented towards CA14, but they seem not that tiny,
so there might be CAFS.
Reading many posts on that great forum (who knew we were not alone down there !)
I saw a lot of mentions about DPA 4061.

Budget, anywhere up to 1000$.

Here come the questions in no particular order :
1. Do I need omnis or cards mics ?
Omni take more crowd noise, but might be less sensitive about movements that might occur during the show.

2. Can the DPA 4061 be used without BB, with the R09 power-in ?
    If yes, are they worth the price difference with Chris's mics ?

3. What are price and quality differences between CA14 and CAFS ?

4. (optional) Having a R09, would I really gain anything upgrading to R09HR ?


Thank you very much for any advice you might share.
raphael.

[su6oxone]

1. cardioids
2. dunno
3. dunno
4. r-09hr is much better build quality, bigger screen, and with a sturdy mechanical line-in jack connection to the circuit board (i.e. no input jack failure worries like with some older r-09s)

[Scooter123]

1.  Cards

2. No

3.  Don't Know

4.  Don't Know

[ralovely]

That's 3 out of 4.
Cards it will be,
CA it will be.
R09HR, interesting, but maybe later.

ANd regardng the specs of CAs, I'll ask their father directly...

thank you again.

[Gutbucket]

Hi Raphael. I'll be the contrarian 4th. 

1) I much prefer the sound of omnis, especially with less costly mics.  But that's me and everyone has different taste. Since you plan to primarily stack tape, you'll have a much higher ratio of direct PA sound over the crowd noise to begin with so you arguably won't need the directionality of cards in that respect.  As a bonus, since omnis will be less particular about orientation, you'll get additional ease of use and piece of mind to enjoy the show.  In addition, omnis can be smaller and stealthier than cards.. incredibly small.
BUT if you are not stack taping in crowded standing conditions, then the omni bet is off.

2) R-09 & R-09HR provide ~3VDC of plug-in power.  All DPA miniature mics need 5-9vdc power EXCEPT the 4063 low DC power model which is designed for 3v.  Not sure if anyone has tried that model powered directly from an R-09 or not but it should work.  I have two pairs of 4060s, one pair will run on R-09 power, one pair won't.  I use CA-UGLY preamps for them both currently, which are no larger than the size of a 9v battery and easily pass the wand test.  4060s are my favorite go-to mic.  I use them more than any of my other mics- ADK, Peluso & Gefell.  As for how they compare you'll have to make up you own mind.  I'd consider the CAFS if I had to replace them for less $$ which look absolutely miniscule.

3) I haven't used either, can't opine.

4) Not for me personally. No appreciable sonic difference if you are using an external preamp. Probably no sonic difference for loud stack taping use.  I prefer the hold switch on the side and use the digital optical out which are R-09 things changed & missing on the HR. My R-09s are holding up fine after 3+ years of hard use and I feel no urge to replace them.

5) Keep the S3lth talk between the lines and out of the public eye around here.

[travelinbeat]

I'll be the nay-say'er for claim that cards are the way to go...

As a primarily stealth taper myself, I'll preface by saying that my main go-to mics for low-pro gigs are trusty CA-14's (+CA-UGLY pre) > R-09HR, but then again, I do not often use the taping technique that OP does.  When I do stack-tape, I don't feel like there would be too much to gain from using the cards, whereas there could be a whole lot to lose.... specifically, nearer the stacks, there is often a greater amount of commotion (depending on the show of course, but you could face anything from wook dancing, to moshing, fighting, or crowdsurfing).  Commotion may require that the taper readjust or turn, push, duck, dodge, or anything else.  These actions will be far more evident through the card's than the omni's.

For stack taping, I think that omni's are the way to go.  OP mentions not being overly concerned with imaging, but the number one technique of stealthing omni's will yield a decent binaural recording plus should keep his body free to address any crowd difficulties. 

OP-- I'd strongly encourage you to take a look at the SUPREMELY tiny CAFS-OMNI's; Chris is on back order right now according to the product's thread, but you may want to reach out to him.

I've also heard that Chris is able to build his mics to function off of the plug-in power on the R09HR-- I can neither confirm this nor guarantee that he can do the same for the original R09, but it's certainly worth asking him.

Chris is a marvelous man with a highly respected product, I'd say take your $1000, buy some CAFS-OMNI's, an R09HR, a CA-UGLY pre, and a nice dinner and a movie for you and the lady in your life

( Chris's CAFS-OMNI's )

[ralovely]

You guys are awesome !
Choice might not be easy, though

Regarding the stealth talk, I wasn't cautious, as it is absolutely not illegal.
I'll refer it as not-so-open taping, from now on.

I agree that stack taping might be easier with omnis, and those CAFS are really tiny !

I'm reluctant to add anything else in not-so-open environment, but what would a preamp add ?
The CA-UGLY is not that big, I might try and compromise.

Thanks a lot.
r/

[MJ]

1. Omnis

2. A friend of mine uses DPA4061s with the PCM-M50 plug-in power on.  But I am not sure about R-09

Chris’s mic sounds great and I am always impressed with the sound quality and the affordable prices of his products but if you look for the best, then you should get DPA….You might be able to get a pair from Yard Sale here or e-bay for $300 to $450. 

3. Don’t know

4. Don’t know but if you have money to buy R09HR, what about a sony new recorder, PCM-M10(very small) or a used PCM-M50 (a bigger than R09) which I believe will soon be up on Yard Sale after more PCM-M10 sells.  These are surely upgrade recorders.

Koichi

[acidjack]

I would also second that you really, really need a power supply if you're taping anything remotely loud. A proper BB will add virtually no bulk.  See, e.g., the Church tiny BB that basically is just a gob of plastic with a couple of battery connections on it (nobody could tell what it is, I wouldn't think) or what I use, the slightly sturdier SPSB-10, which is plastic bodied but covers the battery completely, and barely bigger than a 9v battery.  I won't go into too much detail on stealthing here, but um, given what you're going to need to do with the rest of the gear, a tiny BB like one of these won't make or break you...

I tend to agree with Gutbucket that up-close omnis do sound nice, esp for stack taping, and they are more forgiving of movement.  But, I have the luxury of having different rigs for different situations. If I didn't, and only had to have one set of mics, I suspect cardiods would be my choice, since they can tolerate worse placement than omnis.  Also, I don't know how long you've been out of taping (I started in 1995 and took some time off in the 2000s) but you'll notice that people talk a TON more during shows than they used to.  It was never a problem with omnis back in the 90s (and I have my old tapes to prove it) but nowadays, recording some idiot talking over the whole performance is a much bigger concern.

You guys are awesome !
Choice might not be easy, though

Regarding the stealth talk, I wasn't cautious, as it is absolutely not illegal.
I'll refer it as not-so-open taping, from now on.

I agree that stack taping might be easier with omnis, and those CAFS are really tiny !

I'm reluctant to add anything else in not-so-open environment, but what would a preamp add ?
The CA-UGLY is not that big, I might try and compromise.

Thanks a lot.
r/

[Teen Age Riot]

DPA 4061 > battery box > R09 all the way.

If you like stack taping, these mics can't be beat IMO. (Btw, you will need the 4061s. The 4060s will overload in some situations.)

If you can afford it, get the R09HR. The built quality is much better, and the inputs won't break - which was a problem with the older R09s.

[guysonic]

Most compact/highest possible quality not needing battery box for R-09 is made by my company and is likely this:




Explanation of MOD-3 for deck is here: http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#mod3

Technical Review of R-09 deck here: http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

Suggested DSM-6S/L or DSM-6S/EL model mics is here: http://www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm#chart

This setup configuration will stay within your stated budget.

[setboy]

Hey Raphael! that's my name too Good to have more than one of us here.

For omni mics you could also look into the www.countryman.com B6
Get one of Church's supper small battery boxes. you will need it if you are taping anything loud close to the speaker

[su6oxone]

Most compact/highest possible quality not needing battery box for R-09 is made by my company and is likely this:

[illconditioned]

Most compact/highest possible quality not needing battery box for R-09 is made by my company and is likely this:




Explanation of MOD-3 for deck is here: http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#mod3

Technical Review of R-09 deck here: http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

Suggested DSM-6S/L or DSM-6S/EL model mics is here: http://www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm#chart

This setup configuration will stay within your stated budget.

Nice setup!  It is great not needing a battery box.

In fact, the standard R09 can run quite a few mics with plug-in power.  I've run CA-11, AT853 (4.7k mod), Sennheiser KE4 (2.2k mod), and quite a few others.

DPA will not work, though.  Not enough voltage/current on the Edirol input.

  Richard

[Gutbucket]

..DPA will not work, though.  Not enough voltage/current on the Edirol input.

As I mentioned above one pair of my 4060s (the older pair) does, the other doesn't.. but I wouldn't run the pair that does that way anyway as it probably is not performing to spec with that under-spec powering.

Curious if anyone else here has run the low voltage 4063's and can confirm if they work correctly when powered by these plug-in power recorders.  I know WifiJeff has a pair of 4063s which he bought to run through binder clips connectors to a Sonosax MiniR82 (which, like the R-09 will not power his 4060s) specifically because of this issue.