Topic: Recording in a church - cards or omnis?

[powermonkey]

Hey all. Quick question.

I'm hopefully taping a Frank Turner show at one of my favourite venues, a place called the Union Chapel in London. It looks like I'll be able to run open, so I'll be aiming for a board feed plus my sparkly new Pelusos into my equally sparkly new R44.

The main question I have, though is whether or not I'll be better off using omni or card caps on the Pelusos. I figure that if I was running my mics bang in the middle of the room (or onstage) I'd be better with the omnis, but I strongly suspect I'll have my stand at one end of the room.

Haven't found a floorplan for the place, and my drawing skills are pretty damn bad, but essentially there is a small entry lobby, where the board will be, and the main part of the venue is a big, round space with the stage at one end. My mics will be next to the board, so I'll be limited in terms of height as well.

The Union Chapel has wonderful acoustics, and I'd love to do as good a job of capturing that sound as I can. Am I totally off in thinking that omnis could pick up too much reverb? I'm also a little concerned about picking up the inevitable folks wandering around at the back talking to each other.

If I go with Omnis then I need to get them ordered asap, as it's quite possible that I'll have to order them from the States, unless I can track a pair down over in the UK.

Sorry for the noob questions, and many thanks for the help! I appreciate it.

 

*edit* Any recommendations for mic placement would be great too, seeing as I've never done anything other than just pointing one mic towards one speaker, and one towards the other!   

[boojum]

Generally, the omni's will give you more of a sense of the hall and better bass.  They will not be very directional at all so you will also hear what is behind them.  They are generally best used closer than cardioids.

The cardioids are directrional, of course, can be used at ~1.7 times the distance of omni's.  An ORTF (110 degree arc between the mics and 17cm distance between the diaphragms, is a very forgiving and useful array which has been used successfully by many for a long time.

The amount of reverb the omni's will pick up depends on their location.  The location is very important.  Walk around and find your best spot in the area you can set up.  Try spaced omnis at ~34cm and the ORTF.  Go with what works best.

Let us know how it went.  You will get a good pull.  You may not have a commercial recording but you will have fun.  And that's what it is about, isn't it?     

[powermonkey]

Thanks for the advice, it's appreciated.

Hehe... there's already been talk from the artiste about his desire to release the show in some form, be it live b-sides or otherwise. No pressure on me then!

Think I'll give ORTF a go, but my question is: do I need a riser on my T-Bar or will I be able to get one mic on top of the bar and one below? My Pelusos haven't arrived yet so I haven't yet gone out to buy a new T-bar and hence can't find out myself yet.

Thanks again!

[boojum]

I would say you want to get those cards up off the floor to about 12 - 15' (4 -5 meters if you are metric).  And have them pointed at the music source.

ORTF is not perfect and is not the best in all situations but it does work well in almost all situations and is almost fool proof.  You will get a pretty good pull.  You are recording in what can be a difficult but wonderful space.  Always remember that if you are not spot mic'ing that you are recording the room.  Find your best spot by walking around with one ear covered.  If you can and have the time, hoist the mics in the ORTF array to a position where they sound best.  If you cannot do this, find what you think is the best spot, run them up 12 - 15' pointed at the performers and hit "record."

Let us know how it comes out.  You may be the next HMV!   

[Gutbucket]

If you have a soundboard feed to matrix with, I'd use spaced omnis for the ambient pair.  It should be no problem with them farther back in the hall for that application and some increased space between them will increase the sense of weight and evelopement.  The board feed will give you presence & clarity and the spaced omni ambient mics will pick up the lush church acoustic - sort of the best of both world without having to compromise one or the other too much, because you can balance and mix them to taste.

[newplanet7]

Think I'll give ORTF a go, but my question is: do I need a riser on my T-Bar or will I be able to get one mic on top of the bar and one below?

You can use either approach really.
Personally I use a riser all the time.
Here's what I use:
I grabbed Two of these and use one most of the time.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/47070-REG/Sennheiser_MZA216_Sennheiser_MZA_216_Thread_Adapter.html

Get this to throw on the threads:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/286147-REG/AKG_KM217_3_8_Female_to_5_8_.html

DONE DEAL.

[stevetoney]

The riser isn't a requirement, but handy if the two mic bodies are long enough that there will be interference at the back with your cables.  Alot depends on how long the mic bodies are and whether your cables have right angle connectors at the mic end...straight connectors will interfere with each other more at the rear of the mics than right angle connectors.  Generally though, in my experience, I've found that straight cable connectors will cause you to need a riser and right angles don't.

I tend to agree with gutbucket's opinion on the specifics of how to run, but only based on the fact that you said you'd be getting the SBD feed.  Raising omni's high enough should minimize whatever crowd noise there is from behind, but maximize the lush ambience you get from the room.  Since you have two sources, mix to taste but remember that even though the SBD is nice and clean, it's also usually sterile and boring.  Some people IMHO tend to over-emphasize the SBD and under-emphsize the ambient recording when they do a final mixdown of the matrix.  I'd personally err in the opposite direction, but I'm biased towards liking ambient recordings more than SBDs.

[tgakidis]

Some people IMHO tend to over-emphasize the SBD and under-emphsize the ambient recording when they do a final mixdown of the matrix.  I'd personally err in the opposite direction, but I'm biased towards liking ambient recordings more than SBDs.

What Steve said

[Gutbucket]

Some people IMHO tend to over-emphasize the SBD and under-emphsize the ambient recording when they do a final mixdown of the matrix.  I'd personally err in the opposite direction, but I'm biased towards liking ambient recordings more than SBDs.

What Steve said

What Ted quoted

[BayTaynt3d]

Some people IMHO tend to over-emphasize the SBD and under-emphsize the ambient recording when they do a final mixdown of the matrix.  I'd personally err in the opposite direction, but I'm biased towards liking ambient recordings more than SBDs.

What Steve said

What Ted quoted

QFT FTW!!!