Topic: New taper seeking some advice...

[Diamonds]

Greetings,

So I just taped my first show the other night and I'm wondering if someone could give me some advice on where I went wrong?  I used an Edirol R-09HR with it's internal mics.  The venue was a small club and I was positioned about 30 feet back at the center of the stage.  My recorder was placed about chest high. 

My recording came out with clicks/pops that seem to be on beat with the bass drum.  I checked my input levels before and during recording.  They never peaked and maxed out at about 85%.  I had the mic gain on low, limiter on, and low cut off.

I'm assuming that using the internal mics didn't help me out, however the show came up at the last minute and I haven't had much time to research and order mics yet.  Although I have heard some very decent recordings using the Edirol's internal mics.

Another question I could use some help with is if this is repairable or should I just dump the recording?  The clicks/pops are throughout the recording so finding them all and deleting them manually is probably out of the question.

Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

[vanark]

Can you post a small sample - preferably of the WAV file?

[Diamonds]

No problem:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u3w3y9

The overall quality is not that great to begin with.  But I can probably attribute that to location and using the internal mics.  I'm more concerned with the clicks.

Thanks.

[yltfan]

Wow--that's some rough audio. I'm no expert on the R-09 internal mic, but I suspect that the show was just too loud/you were too close for the mics. Was it a pretty loud show? Was your rec level set to 1 or 2?

My advice--get some external mics that can handle more spl's, and don't have to stay in your pocket. Will you be going stealth mode, usually, or can you get something bigger and go with a stand? What's your budget? You can probably find a pair of Nakamichi cm-300s for pretty cheap, and because they are powered by an internal battery, you can run them straight in to the r-09.

As far as removing the pops, several audio programs have pop removal tools that might help, but I wouldn't bother. I'd just get out there and try again with a different setup.

[Diamonds]

Thanks for your input yltfan.

The show was pretty loud.  It was in a rather small venue and I couldn't be too much further back.  I usually only attend a handful of shows each year, and they would most likely be in a stealth setting.  My budget is not really an issue.  I like a good deal, but am willing to sacrifice money for quality. 

I've tried a couple of audio tools already with no improvement.  I will heed your advice and try again with a better setup.  I don't get discouraged easily and would like to contribute what I can to the community.

Thanks again and any additional advice is still welcome.

[yltfan]

For stealth taping, most folks around here recommend Church Audio mics, but I'm partial to the Audio Technica 853s. With either of those, you'll need a preamp or battery box of some sort. Again, Church Audio is a good place for a small preamp. I have AT 853 mics, and a Church 9100 preamp. Here's a show I did with that setup:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=225949
Here's one someone else did:
http://www.archive.org/details/watt2009-04-06.flac16
(track 16 is my fave!)

If you want to spend more than a few hundred dollars, there are more options. But if you're only doing a few shows a year, in stealth mode, I can't see getting any fancier than the above.

But no mics will sound any good if you can't get them into a good spot.

[Diamonds]

The Mike Watt show sounds really good.  I'm downloading your Decemberists show right now.  Thanks for the links.  I've done some research and a setup like this is pretty much what I was looking for.

Much appreciation.

[yltfan]

This might still be available:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=126391.0

And it looks like there is a CA 9100 in the yard as well, just make sure it has the right plugs, power for whatever mics you get.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127349.0

[mosquito]

The clicking sounds like it's limiter artifacts.  If you were going to do a similar show tomorrow, I'd say turn the limiter off and turn the low cut on.  If that recording turns out to sound like there's not enough bass, that's easy to fix in post if you have a clean signal to begin with.  If I could listen to the recording during the show and it was still too loud for the built-in mics, I'd try to find the quietest place in the room. 

The tape also sounds like it was automatically setting levels (like as if you'd been turning it down after every loud bit and then back up, kinda like this:  |/|/|/).  Can you turn that off and set them manually?

[dorrcoq]

Definitely set the limiter to off.  You didn't mention the Automatic Gain Control (AGC) - that should ALWAYS be off.

[Diamonds]

Thanks for the links yltdan.  I'm leaning towards buying some new gear from Chris Church.

The limiter and agc switch is the same switch...but in the settings I had it set to limiter.  I noticed the up and downs as well mosquito and that must have been a side effect of having the limiter on.

Most shows I attend aren't as loud as this one was.  My friend had an extra ticket and I had just bought the Edirol, so I thought why not try it out.

As for the low-cut....what would make one decide to switch it on or off....and if one would decide to switch it on....how would one decide between 100Hz, 200Hz, or 400Hz which are my options?

Thanks everyone for being so helpful.

[rhinowing]

i'm not sure about other people here, but i generally don't even run low-cut. better to reduce bass manually when you're editing the recording than not have any bass at all

[Fried Chicken Boy]

i'm not sure about other people here, but i generally don't even run low-cut. better to reduce bass manually when you're editing the recording than not have any bass at all

Agreed with rhinowing on this.  It's a lot easier to reduce bass later in post than trying to put it back in.  I'd rather have the whole signal to work with.  Been very happy with my R-09 for nearly two years and, personally, I never use the low-cut filter, limiter or automatic gain control.  Recording in 24-bit and manually setting my levels conservatively, I can raise levels during editing without introducing too much noise; much better, IMHO, than letting the machine set them.  But as you'll read all over these boards, location in the venue is just as/more important than the mics you use.  Alas, the internal mics on the R-09 aren't the best...

[guysonic]

NEW mics will do nothing to solve user choices of using limiter, auto level, and pushing levels too high often required of 16 bit depth. 

Suggest using none of these setting and always record at 24 bit depth with peak recording levels set once at ~-12 dB below max 0 dB VU. 

Then adjust loudness/bass/sample depth to taste in post edit as already suggested.

[Diamonds]

Thanks everyone!

Next time I get out there I will try recording with all the limiter/agc/low-cut turned off.  I understand the difference with recording at 24-bit and 16 bit....but I don't understand this:

"once at ~-12 dB below max 0 dB VU"

If someone could elaborate I would most appreciative.

Thanks again,

Jeff