Topic: My first records

[hypermus1c]

Hello,

I'm a french newbie in the taper's world and i just would some help to have a good and clean sound when recording a gig 

I had first an edirol R09-HR for the first gig (Placebo) and I did not set correctly the Edirol (Limiter/AGC ON, Mic Gain High) and the sound was very bad and very saturated too !
For the second gig (Muse), I correctly set the Edirol (with help of french forum) (24bits/44,1kHz, Limiter/AGC OFF, Low Cut ON and MIC GAIN Low), the sound quality was better but little dull.

I received this week the CA-9100 preamp and CA-14 omni and cardio... Cool :-)
I'm going to a gig next week (Franz Ferdinand) and would like help on setting the Edirol and CA-9100.

Here are the first parameters of the Edirol :
Limiter / AGC : OFF
PlugIn Power : OFF
Always 24bits/44, 1kHz
For Low Cut Is it better to be ON with a choice of 100, 200 or 400 Hz or to put OFF?

How to adjust the input level of the Edirol with the gain of the CA-9100? Should we adjust the input level with an average value (not to exceed the number 20 on the screen of the Edirol)?
How to adjust the gain of the CA-9100? Just before that the light on the right o the gain button does not light?

Otherwise, I intend to use the cardio (it's a hall of 5,000 people). Is that OK ? What is for you the best place for microphones for the recording ?

If you have some ideas
Thank you in advance !)
Bye.

[rhinowing]

always leave the low-cut off. better to reduce the bass on the computer than to have a recording with no bass at all

[hypermus1c]

Hello,

Thanks for this first reply.

I have seen on other posts that the proper parameters are:
55-60 (input level) for the Edirol R09-HR
80% level of gain for the CA-9100
And the meter should be about -12 dB

It is a good start?

Thanks.

[rhinowing]

yep, that seems correct. make sure to record in 24 bit. you can record much lower than in 16-bit and not have to worry about having hiss on the recording

[Belexes]

Unity on the HR is 40-45.  I set mine there and crank the 9100 all the way or almost all the using my CA mics.

[stevetoney]

To elaborate a bit on the earlier suggestions, one of the most important things in your recording set-up is to realize where the unity gain point is on your R-09HR and never set the R-09HR over that setting.  As someone else said, unity is somewhere in the 40-50 range, so I always set my R-09HR lower.  Personally, I've set it at 30 and never had a problem.

Next, you need to be aware of how the red light on your ST-9100 preamp works.  Chris'sRetail Space listing says the red light has three brightness levels Hi = clip! medium = 5 db before clip low =10db before clip or signal present.

So, here's the sequence that I use when I get to the show. 

1.  Set the R-09HR at 30...which is 10-20 clicks below the unity setting.  (BTW, ALWAYS record in 24bit)
2.  When the music starts, on the ST-9100 adjust the gain setting upward until you occasionally get the middle brightness level on the red light. 
3.  Check the recording level on the R09HR, adjust upward or downward so the levels on the R-09HR are peaking around -10db.  If you can't get the levels up to -10db without increasing the R-09HR above unity or without adjusting the gain on the R-09HR so that the brightest light is on, then don't worry about it...just allow levels to peak at whatever they're peaking at.  Don't set your levels any higher than -10db because this should allow ample headroom during the show for the volume level of the show to increase without any adjustments needed to your rig.  Since you're recording in 24bit (NEVER record in 16bit with an R-09HR) you'll be able to use the increased resolution offered by 24bit to give yourself ample headroom...use 24bit to your advantage so you don't have to run your levels hot and risk going over.
4.  Reminder: In the process of doing step 3, make sure you don't set the gain on the R-09HR to be over the 40-50 unity setting.
5.  During the show, check every so often to verify that the red light on the pre-amp isn't going to the brightest.
6.  At this point, the only thing you need to monitor during the show is the brightness level on the preamp to ensure that you aren't clipping.  I do occasionally check levels during the show too, but that's only to verify that everything is still running fine.  Otherwise there should be no reason to touch anything from this point until it's time to hit 'stop'.
7.  After the show is over and you're home, adjust your levels upward in post.

Hope this helps.

[hypermus1c]

Thanks a lot for your help. It's very cool 
I'm going to test it all this Thursday 

[fmaderjr]

I'm a little hesitant to disagree with tonedeaf on anything because I've gained a lot of knowledge from reading his posts. There is a weath of useful info in his reply, but I do disagree on 2 points:
    1) I always set my recorders to unity gain and have never had a problem either. I see no reason to set the recorder way below unity. That means that you will need to turn up the ST-9100 higher to make up for the reduction in gain caused by setting the recorder below unity. Since you will need to have the ST-9100 cranked up higher, at a loud show you would be increasing the chances of the ST-9100 itself clipping and the clipping light coming on (which tonedeaf wisely cautions you to watch for). With my recorder set at unity and my ST-9100 adjusted so that the meters peak at around -10 dB (as tonedeaf wisely advises) I've never once had the clipping light on my ST-9100 come one. I don't even worry about checking it anymore.
   2) Since the R-09HR supposedly has a very good preamp, at a quiet show if you have the ST-9100 open all the way and still aren't getting levels near -10 db, I don't see a problem with adjusting the HR's gain a good bit higher than the 40-50 unity gain setting until the levels are peaking at -10 or so. With a recorder whose preamp is not as good (like the R-09) I would agree with tonedeaf. You might not want to set it much above unity even at a quiet show-it would probably be better to boost in post.

Still, following tonedeaf's advice to the letter should result in a great recording every time. I just find it easier to set the recorder at unity gain and have to worry much about the ST-9100's clipping light.

[MSTaper]

This might be slightly off topic, but does anyone recall what unity gain is for an Edirol R-09?

MSTaper

[rhinowing]

This might be slightly off topic, but does anyone recall what unity gain is for an Edirol R-09?

MSTaper

pretty sure it's 8

[stevetoney]

The only reason I suggested starting with the R-09HR set a bit lower is to give a little leeway to adjust the R-09HR upward after the show starts, if needed. 

Also, the general consensus in taper land is that it's better to add gain at the preamp end rather than the recorder end.  The reason is that the preamp of course is designed specifically to add low noise gain to the signal path.  The R-09HR in an all-in-one...preamp, ADC, and recorder.  Chances are pretty good that the R-09HR gain stage doesn't add gain as cleanly as the ST-9100 does.  Not only that, but you have a light on your ST-9100 that tells you when clipping begins.  There is no light on the R-09HR to tell you when preamp distortion kicks in above unity gain.

It's probably not that big a deal either way though.

PS:  I've read that the ADC on the R-09HR is the good part...it's the preamp that I wouldn't personally put too much trust in.  However, if you've had good luck in bumping the R-09HR above unity without any preamp distortion, then that's cool.  I never tried it because I got absolutely HORRIBLE results doing this on an R-09, so I've never trusted the R-09HR. 

I'm a little hesitant to disagree with tonedeaf on anything because I've gained a lot of knowledge from reading his posts. There is a weath of useful info in his reply, but I do disagree on 2 points:
    1) I always set my recorders to unity gain and have never had a problem either. I see no reason to set the recorder way below unity. That means that you will need to turn up the ST-9100 higher to make up for the reduction in gain caused by setting the recorder below unity. Since you will need to have the ST-9100 cranked up higher, at a loud show you would be increasing the chances of the ST-9100 itself clipping and the clipping light coming on (which tonedeaf wisely cautions you to watch for). With my recorder set at unity and my ST-9100 adjusted so that the meters peak at around -10 dB (as tonedeaf wisely advises) I've never once had the clipping light on my ST-9100 come one. I don't even worry about checking it anymore.
   2) Since the R-09HR supposedly has a very good preamp, at a quiet show if you have the ST-9100 open all the way and still aren't getting levels near -10 db, I don't see a problem with adjusting the HR's gain a good bit higher than the 40-50 unity gain setting until the levels are peaking at -10 or so. With a recorder whose preamp is not as good (like the R-09) I would agree with tonedeaf. You might not want to set it much above unity even at a quiet show-it would probably be better to boost in post.

Still, following tonedeaf's advice to the letter should result in a great recording every time. I just find it easier to set the recorder at unity gain and have to worry much about the ST-9100's clipping light.

[stevetoney]

This might be slightly off topic, but does anyone recall what unity gain is for an Edirol R-09?

MSTaper

pretty sure it's 8

Yeah, I think that's about right.  That always seemed really strange to me though because, as I recall from my days of R-09 ownership, 8 was pretty down low on the range.  That only gives you basically 8 clicks between zero and 8 to set the R-09 at.  While functionally speaking, there's no issue with that, but for some reason it still kinda bugged me. 

Anyway, the key point though is that you wouldn't be alone if you initially question that 8 is the right number for unity...since it is indeed so low on the scale.

[fmaderjr]

Also, the general consensus in taper land is that it's better to add gain at the preamp end rather than the recorder end.  The reason is that the preamp of course is designed specifically to add low noise gain to the signal path.  The R-09HR in an all-in-one...preamp, ADC, and recorder.  Chances are pretty good that the R-09HR gain stage doesn't add gain as cleanly as the ST-9100 does.

Agreed. I only meant I suspected it would be OK to add some gain from the HR once you were getting max gain from the ST-9100, because a number of people have posted that it's pres are way cleaner than the R-09's.

Thanks for your clarification on your other points as well. Reading your posts is always informative.

[stevetoney]

Also, the general consensus in taper land is that it's better to add gain at the preamp end rather than the recorder end.  The reason is that the preamp of course is designed specifically to add low noise gain to the signal path.  The R-09HR in an all-in-one...preamp, ADC, and recorder.  Chances are pretty good that the R-09HR gain stage doesn't add gain as cleanly as the ST-9100 does.

Agreed. I only meant I suspected it would be OK to add some gain from the HR once you were getting max
gain from the ST-9100, because a number of people have posted that it's pres are way cleaner than the R-09's.

Thanks for your clarification on your other points as well. Reading your posts is always informative.

Thanks!

[hypermus1c]

Hello,

Thank you very much for those interesting informations.
I will try these settings in the first part of the gig 

always leave the low-cut off. better to reduce the bass on the computer than to have a recording with no bass at all

For information, ToneDeaf, put you also the parameter "low cut" to off?

Thanks.