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Author Topic: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)  (Read 11143 times)

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Offline mdopp

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For those who are interested: I have recently made a comparison: http://www.martin-doppelbauer.de/fieldrecorders
Comments welcome :D
Martin

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2009, 08:06:25 PM »
Interesting at a quick read.   Thanks for posting.

Quote
I would be very interested to compare the new Edirol R-44 and the Tascam D-100 but unfortunately these units are not (yet?) in my reach.
The R-4 seems not well thought of in noise terms.  The R-4 Pro seems to be considered significantly better.  The R-44 is said to have the same or similar preamps to the R-4 Pro

Offline mdopp

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2009, 02:10:14 AM »
I have just added a comparison of harmonic distortions when feeding the recorders with line signals.
The results were amazing.
The Edirol performed very well (with harmonic distortions below -80 dBFS) but the Zoom H4n was a disaster. I found that if you set the record-level of the unbalanced 1/4" TSR input any lower than 40 (:o) you will end up with distortions above -60 dBFS and that will be audible in the recording.
Setting the record-level to 1 (the lowest setting) will result in distortions of -45 dBFS. Unusable, in my opinion.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 06:09:53 AM »
Very interesting testing.  I wonder whether anyone else has actually tested this device in the same way and come to any conclusions to compare with?

Offline Kevin T

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 09:01:30 AM »
Based on overly sensitive the H2 line in Mic pre performance this is not a surprize at all.

KT 

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 06:38:32 AM »
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Based on overly sensitive the H2 line in Mic pre performance this is not a surprize at all.
Huh?  The H2 hasn't been mentioned in this discussion.

Offline Kevin T

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 03:04:48 PM »
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Based on overly sensitive the H2 line in Mic pre performance this is not a surprize at all.
Huh?  The H2 hasn't been mentioned in this discussion.
No but because the same engineering R&D team was involved and the H4 pre-dated the H2 I assumed H2 line input issues were on H4 and MAYBE H4N

Offline mdopp

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 01:33:25 AM »
I'd really like to test the units further with professional test-equipment (signal generator etc.). But my own profession is in a slightly different field and I am doing this just as a hobby.
Anyway, those distortions of the H4n are definitely real. You can hear them easily in any recording over the unbalanced inputs. The recording sounds harsh with lots of (unwanted) high frequencies.
I have now sent a letter to Zoom in Japan asking for their comments. I'll post their reply on the website - if there is any.
BTW, I was so frustrated with the H4n that I have now purchased a Sony PCM-D50 (just yesterday...). It has gone through the same tests already and the results are outstanding. Even better than the Edirol R-4. My H4n will soon end up on ebay...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 01:35:01 AM by mdopp »

Offline DSatz

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 08:26:09 AM »
A person who close-mikes The Who (a band I heard live in 1967 or 68 and my ears are still ringing) with high-output condenser microphones might never hear the inherent noise of a given recorder since it will always be masked by signal, while the same recorder might be considered unusable by someone who records clavichords with ribbon microphones placed 20 feet away (although granted, that's a dumb way to record a clavichord).

All I'm saying is (a) give peace a chance and (b) the range of signal levels that come out of all our different microphones under different circumstances is so wide that any noise measurement of a recorder can only be meaningful for people who use the same or similar gain settings as the one used in making the measurement.

An instructive example: I own eight or ten different preamps, and the one that measures the quietest at very high gain levels is NOT the quietest one at the gain levels I actually use when recording--and vice versa. The one that's the quietest at the gain levels I actually use isn't a preamp with a very good reputation for being quiet--because that specification is measured at the preamp's maximum gain. Yet it outperforms all the others at realistic (for me) gain settings.

When I measure preamps and recorders, I use my own typical recording assignments as the basis for deciding what signal levels to use for testing. The noise, THD+N and overload limits that I measure are most useful to a person whose requirements are similar, while if your requirements are markedly different, my results may not mean very much to you. That's just how it is.

If I wanted to do everybody else's homework as well as my own, I might test at three different levels (say) 12-15 dB apart from each other, but it's still essential to have a constant reference level when comparing different pieces of equipment. The way of finding a nominal signal level for testing that mshilarious describes has the virtue of greater fairness to different recorders that are designed for different purposes and usage scenarios. Each one gets evaluated on its own terms. But I'm just an egocentric bastard with a test bench and limited patience, who's trying to find the best options for myself and for others who record in fairly similar ways. I'm not normally as concerned with the details of a recorder or preamp's performance if it's unsuitable for the kind of recording I usually do.

Basically I know what signal levels my main microphones usually put out during a recording, so I measure preamps and recorders at that signal level. In fact I use my microphone bodies as part of the test setup so that the source impedance driving the mike inputs will be realistic (you can substitute a fixed capacitance for the capsule and push audio signals through that capacitance into the body of the microphone--a nice way to avoid the non-repeatability of "shootouts"). If a preamp or recorder can't handle the levels, that tells me all I need to know about that preamp or recorder; I don't normally readjust the testing levels to accommodate a preamp or recorder unless I'm trying to document the clipping point of its inputs ("how bad is it, exactly?").

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 12:30:52 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline mdopp

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2010, 12:50:00 AM »
Hm, you may have not seen my latest update ?
I was recording a 10 kHz tone over the unbalanced inputs and the results are horrible, to say the least. This is not about clipping or overloading the preamps. It happens even with signals 20 dB below clipping.
But I do agree: If you are recording The Who, this might be a welcomed feature ;D

Offline chris319

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2010, 11:56:40 AM »
Martin -

WRT your distortion tests, there appears to be something fundamentally wrong with your methodology. I examined the wav file of the H4n you posted and those are not sine waves at all. See for yourself. Visually they are jagged and show a great deal of quantization error. Properly-recorded sine waves shouldn't look like that.

You say "rec-level 40"; if you are using the H4n's continuously-variable gain setting, I believe that reduces the gain in the digital domain only and may account for the quantization error you are seeing. Try recording at the maximum (digital) level setting. On the H4 this was 127 IIRC. The H4 had a slide switch which I believe was a three-position analog attentuator. Set that for maximum attenuation/minimum sensitivity, then bring down the level of your CD player accordingly. Examine your recordings using just about any audio editor to make sure the sine waves themselves are unclipped and undistorted.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 04:17:56 PM by chris319 »

Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 12:33:53 PM »
You say "rec-level 40"; if you are using the H4n's continuously-variable gain setting, I believe that reduces the gain in the digital domain only and may account for the quantization error you are seeing.

No. For the first time, Zoom got it at least partly right with the H4n. The input level control does indeed happen in the analog domain for level settings 1 to 100. Below 1 they're just messing around with the digital signal behind the A/D converter.

Since mdopp did his tests at a setting of 30, his methodology is correct.

Ralf
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 12:35:47 PM by fotoralf.be »
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

Offline chris319

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 03:48:59 PM »
You say "rec-level 40"; if you are using the H4n's continuously-variable gain setting, I believe that reduces the gain in the digital domain only and may account for the quantization error you are seeing.

No. For the first time, Zoom got it at least partly right with the H4n. The input level control does indeed happen in the analog domain for level settings 1 to 100. Below 1 they're just messing around with the digital signal behind the A/D converter.

Since mdopp did his tests at a setting of 30, his methodology is correct.

Ralf

Then explain why the sine waves he recorded are so jagged.

Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 05:14:01 PM »
Then explain why the sine waves he recorded are so jagged.

Why should I? I just pointed out that you're wrong with your assumption about the H4n's level control.

There's a whole bunch of possible reasons from impedance mismatch to something wrong with his H4n. But we can definitely exclude brickwalling ahead of the A/D converter. Maybe they're simply all that bad.

I've been using mine for about six monts now and I'm quite happy with it. Then again, I  haven't used the TRS inputs.

Ralf
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

Offline chris319

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Re: Preamp noise comparison of field recorders (Zoom H4/H4n and Edirol R-4)
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2010, 04:47:02 AM »
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Why should I? I just pointed out that you're wrong with your assumption about the H4n's level control.

That doesn't invalidate the fact that his "sine waves" are so badly aliased that there's no way he's going to get an accurate idea of the amount of distortion present.

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There's a whole bunch of possible reasons from impedance mismatch

Impedance mismatch in the analog domain could cause aliasing in the digital domain? Please explain how this is possible.

 

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