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Offline Bullet1979

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Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« on: February 11, 2010, 11:58:42 AM »
So I've been using a pair of CSC's the past few years and I'm becoming less and less satisfied with the results I'm getting so I'm looking at replacing them.  It seems that my recordings are becoming less and less full-sounding and the left channel is a few dB quieter than the right.  Is it common for mics to degrade in performance like this?

Anyway, I've been looking at replacement mics and I'd like to get some opinions.  I own a pair of CA-11's that I haven't used at any shows yet - I hear they won't work in my baseball cap mount because of the rear vents - will they not work in a Kangol either (I'm not even familiar with the Kangol setup)?

Other mics that I've been looking at are a bunch from SoundProfessionals, namely the CMC-2/CMC-8 - does anyone have any input to say if the price difference between these two mics make the CMC-8's worth the extra $100?  I'd obviously have to opt for the low sensitivity option as I would be recording very loud rock shows. 

I'm also very intrigued by the CMC-25 hypers but I'm a bit hesitant due to the lack of info I can find about them outside soundprofessionals' website.  I'm wondering how they sound and if they handle the SPL's of a loud rock show well...  anyone have experience with these?

The other pair I'm considering are the MM-HLSC-1's.  I've read here they don't handle high SPL's well (which is ironic considering the website's claim to handling 138 dB without a module) without Church's mod.  Even with a battery box, is it safe to assume these mics will distort at a loud show without the mod?  My research implies these are the best-sounding mics among the ones I've listed in this thread but they're unusuable until Chris has done his magic... That being said, does anyone have a rough idea of what Chris charges for the mod?

I'm also definitely not against recommendations for other mics but I'd be really interested in hearing the pros and cons of the mics I've listed.  I'm looking for a well-balanced sound that doesn't have too bassy of a low-end but also not a super bright high-end (like I'm starting to get from my CSC's).

The rest of my setup consists of the Edirol R09 and the microphone madness miniature mint box battery/filter (http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmmimbobafim.htm).


Offline rastasean

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 12:20:51 PM »
try reading the microphone section and using search as this is often asked.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 12:48:26 PM »
A few opinions/comments.

1. CA-11 or other small cards work fine in a hat or in croakie mount as long as vents aren't covered.

2. CMC-8 are good mics.  IMHO better than CA-11, more comparable to CA-14 in sound but more versatile. Advantage of these is switchable caps.  Personally I like the regular small omni, and then use the adapter to upsize to the U853 cards/hypers for a hat rig when I want that.

3. I'd skip those Sound Pro hypers and frankly all small hypers.  If no bass and tinny sound from the CSC is getting you down, you'll find a lot to hate about these, too.  Just my opinion, of course.

4. MM-HLSC-1 (which I believe are really Senn MKE40's?) I have no direct experience with, but I believe others use them here and like.  Personally I am wary of any mic that has SPL handling issues, however, so you may want other users to speak to that.

Also worth a look: Nevaton mics (I have no experience, but search the board), used DPA 4061s (sometimes very good prices can be had), Countryman B3 (again, at least one user on here swears by his), Church Audio Audix active cables + Audix caps. 

So I've been using a pair of CSC's the past few years and I'm becoming less and less satisfied with the results I'm getting so I'm looking at replacing them.  It seems that my recordings are becoming less and less full-sounding and the left channel is a few dB quieter than the right.  Is it common for mics to degrade in performance like this?

Anyway, I've been looking at replacement mics and I'd like to get some opinions.  I own a pair of CA-11's that I haven't used at any shows yet - I hear they won't work in my baseball cap mount because of the rear vents - will they not work in a Kangol either (I'm not even familiar with the Kangol setup)?

Other mics that I've been looking at are a bunch from SoundProfessionals, namely the CMC-2/CMC-8 - does anyone have any input to say if the price difference between these two mics make the CMC-8's worth the extra $100?  I'd obviously have to opt for the low sensitivity option as I would be recording very loud rock shows. 

I'm also very intrigued by the CMC-25 hypers but I'm a bit hesitant due to the lack of info I can find about them outside soundprofessionals' website.  I'm wondering how they sound and if they handle the SPL's of a loud rock show well...  anyone have experience with these?

The other pair I'm considering are the MM-HLSC-1's.  I've read here they don't handle high SPL's well (which is ironic considering the website's claim to handling 138 dB without a module) without Church's mod.  Even with a battery box, is it safe to assume these mics will distort at a loud show without the mod?  My research implies these are the best-sounding mics among the ones I've listed in this thread but they're unusuable until Chris has done his magic... That being said, does anyone have a rough idea of what Chris charges for the mod?

I'm also definitely not against recommendations for other mics but I'd be really interested in hearing the pros and cons of the mics I've listed.  I'm looking for a well-balanced sound that doesn't have too bassy of a low-end but also not a super bright high-end (like I'm starting to get from my CSC's).

The rest of my setup consists of the Edirol R09 and the microphone madness miniature mint box battery/filter (http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmmimbobafim.htm).
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Bullet1979

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 01:15:38 PM »
I'm not familiar with the concept of interchangeable caps - are you saying I could purchase the CMC-8's with say the cardioid elements and omni elements?  I'm assuming that would nearly double the price, correct?

Thanks for the feedback so far... I think so far I'm leaning toward the CMC-8 cards as opposed to the omnis - but this is based on my past experience of getting overly bassy recordings from other omnis whereas cards seem to have better separation.  Does this not hold true with these mics?

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 01:31:04 PM »
CA-11 mics come in either omni or card and you can buy one set and get the other caps. I have both sets of caps.

CA-14 mics come in either omni or card but you can not change caps. They are better than the CA-11's sound-wise.

CAFS omni's are about as small as you can get. (There are no CAFS cards)

I'm currently testing the CA-1 omni prototypes, no word as to whether Chris will go into production on this model but you can get in on testing by going to the Loaner section and signing up.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 09:48:19 AM »
Just a few footnotes. One is that "modular" condenser microphone systems are the norm in the big leagues, not the exception. The capsule contains the capacitive element that converts sound waves into variations in electrical voltage, so it determines the microphone's response characteristics for the most part. If you only use two or four mikes at a time, it's nice to be able to buy a range of different capsules (in pairs, usually) so that you can adapt your recording setup to the space you're going to record in, without having to buy complete sets of new microphones of each type.

Just as a piece of historical trivia, the first ever commercially sold condenser microphone back in 1928, though it was quite large, had three interchangeable capsules: one that was more or less an omni, one that was more or less a cardioid (sort of), and one that was pretty much a figure-8. Actually there were more different models at different times but at any one time there were usually three and they usually fit into that scheme. So this approach is by no means a new thing.

My other footnote is that it is easier to manufacture an omni than a cardioid (of a given quality level) and easier to manufacture a cardioid than a hyper- or supercardioid (of a given quality level), so in the relatively low-cost range, the omnis often sound smoother and more life-like than the cardioids, and the cardioids often sound smoother and more life-like than the super- or hypercardioids. Someone recommended that you stay away from all small hypercardioids, but it seemed to me as if that person's frame of reference was reasonably-priced microphones.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't project what a really good super- or hypercardioid will sound like based on low-cost implementations, which (for the most part) are designed for speech pickup in acoustically difficult situations, e.g. recording a business meeting or a lecture from some distance away, with casual/available placement of the microphone (usually only one, for mono). The general recipe for speech intelligibility under such circumstances, particularly in Far Eastern designs but not exclusively those, is a low-frequency rolloff and a bump or peak in the range of a few kHz (maybe 1.5 - 5). That's not a good recipe for most music recording, and the people who design those microphones don't generally recommend them for that purpose.

I've recorded probably 1,200+ classical concerts with pairs of super- to- hypercardioid microphones and gotten mostly good results--not bright and not thin--but the microphones aren't inexpensive, either.

--best regards
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 09:51:37 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline acidjack

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 11:10:35 AM »
Just to clarify, by "small" I mean as in the size of DPA 406x series, Church Audio, etc. - so maybe I meant "miniature".  Obviously the Schoeps MK41 active setup is "small", but not nearly as small as those mentioned, for example.  As far as I am aware, even the miniature DPA hypercardiod is not suitable for recording live music in the fashion the OP intends.  But, I could be mistaken.

Just a few footnotes. One is that "modular" condenser microphone systems are the norm in the big leagues, not the exception. The capsule contains the capacitive element that converts sound waves into variations in electrical voltage, so it determines the microphone's response characteristics for the most part. If you only use two or four mikes at a time, it's nice to be able to buy a range of different capsules (in pairs, usually) so that you can adapt your recording setup to the space you're going to record in, without having to buy complete sets of new microphones of each type.

Just as a piece of historical trivia, the first ever commercially sold condenser microphone back in 1928, though it was quite large, had three interchangeable capsules: one that was more or less an omni, one that was more or less a cardioid (sort of), and one that was pretty much a figure-8. Actually there were more different models at different times but at any one time there were usually three and they usually fit into that scheme. So this approach is by no means a new thing.

My other footnote is that it is easier to manufacture an omni than a cardioid (of a given quality level) and easier to manufacture a cardioid than a hyper- or supercardioid (of a given quality level), so in the relatively low-cost range, the omnis often sound smoother and more life-like than the cardioids, and the cardioids often sound smoother and more life-like than the super- or hypercardioids. Someone recommended that you stay away from all small hypercardioids, but it seemed to me as if that person's frame of reference was reasonably-priced microphones.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't project what a really good super- or hypercardioid will sound like based on low-cost implementations, which (for the most part) are designed for speech pickup in acoustically difficult situations, e.g. recording a business meeting or a lecture from some distance away, with casual/available placement of the microphone (usually only one, for mono). The general recipe for speech intelligibility under such circumstances, particularly in Far Eastern designs but not exclusively those, is a low-frequency rolloff and a bump or peak in the range of a few kHz (maybe 1.5 - 5). That's not a good recipe for most music recording, and the people who design those microphones don't generally recommend them for that purpose.

I've recorded probably 1,200+ classical concerts with pairs of super- to- hypercardioid microphones and gotten mostly good results--not bright and not thin--but the microphones aren't inexpensive, either.

--best regards
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline su6oxone

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 11:26:56 AM »
I'm no expert like Mr. Satz (and I'm not being sarcastic... he is arguably one of the true experts on this forum), but personally I've found that even higher-end super/hypercard caps like the MK41 tapes sound a bit 'thin' compared with the cardioid versions in music recording. 

Re: the OP's question, it seems that trying the CA-11s would be the first thing to do.  If not satisfied, then probably the other mics listed (Microphone Madness and Sound Pro) won't give the results you're looking for since they are generally considered to be comparable in terms of recording quality.  The most popular around here seem to be the CA-11, the CA-14, the AT853 (Sound Pro SP-CMC-4), and the MM HLSC-1.  The AT853s need to get the 4.7k/low-sens mod to be used in high SPL situations, and probably the MM too but some have reported that they are fine in loud shows. 

The suggestion by someone above of the Audix caps with the Church Audio cables may be a better sounding option but I don't think there are many people who have tried it out (and few sound samples out there). 

Offline Bullet1979

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2010, 03:08:25 PM »
The most popular around here seem to be the CA-11, the CA-14, the AT853 (Sound Pro SP-CMC-4), and the MM HLSC-1.  The AT853s need to get the 4.7k/low-sens mod to be used in high SPL situations, and probably the MM too but some have reported that they are fine in loud shows. 

Can anyone confirm or disprove that the MM HLSC-1's require the 4.7k mod for loud shows in their own experience?

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2010, 04:13:11 PM »
Can anyone confirm or disprove that the MM HLSC-1's require the 4.7k mod for loud shows in their own experience?

Yes-my unmodded ones did not sound good at all when recording Iggy & the Stooges (far far from the stacks). There was no obvious clipping, but the recording was much muddier than I was expecting and generally did not sound too good.

Actually sounded much worse than one I did at an even louder Southern Culture On the Skids show with unmodded AT853's.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline yousef

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2010, 04:21:19 PM »
If you decide to go for the HLSCs, I've got a pair (already Church-modded) for sale here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129325.msg1706822#msg1706822
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 09:38:49 AM »
su6oxone, thank you for the kind words, please don't worry too much about my vanity, and I actually kind of think we're both right, depending on what you expect a recording to do with room sound. Just let me drop a very brief seventeen-page essay on this topic and I'll be ready to move along.

Rooms have an acoustical property called "standing waves" which result in particular frequencies being highly emphasized in certain places within the room, and highly reduced in others. At any given point in the room where a listener or a microphone might be, you'll have an oversupply of certain frequencies and an undersupply of others, often by large amounts (many dB). These occur most markedly at low frequencies. We don't normally listen to music with our heads clamped in a fixed position within the room; we move around, and our brains integrate the differences in spectral distribution to give us a rich impression of the space that we're listening in.

Microphones, on the other hand, only pick up that information for the particular points at which they're located, and when we play back the recording, there we are again in a room and we're moving around and integrating information about many points in space--just not the space where the recording was made, usually. (I guess you could break in to the club and listen to your tape over their sound system after everybody's gone for the night; I do that at Carnegie Hall all the time. Seriously, though, if you could do that, the sound quality would manifestly suck because all those irregularities would now be twice as great.)

Anyway: Along the range of transducer types from pure pressure transducers (e.g. single-diaphragm omnis) to pure pressure-gradient transducers (figure-8s), with cardioids being smack in the middle and super-to-hyper-cardioids being somewhere between the middle and the pure pressure-gradient end of the spectrum, a funny thing happens. An omnidirectional microphone will pick up the peaks and troughs of these standing waves from all three dimensions of spatial orientation, while a pure pressure-gradient transducer has a null in one plane, eliminating two of the three dimensions as far as pickup up the energy from these standing waves is concerned. Cardioids are in the middle--they get one dimension completely and the other two partially, and for supercardioids the "two partially" get picked up substantially less.

So even if the on-axis frequency response of a super- or hypercardioid was as flat as could be, it would be delivering a clearer and more neutral sound in this respect. But some people definitely find this disappointing simply because they are used to having more of the other stuff. The sonic location of the individual points in space occupied by your two microphones both is and, at the same time, isn't really what you want a stereo recording to be about. Depending on what you expect a recording to deliver, the effect on the listener is definitely different; the quantitative analysis alone ("a given pattern of microphone will deliver X% direct sound vs. Y% reflected sound at a given distance") doesn't really account for it. In some ways, it's like what LP surface noise does for someone who's used to vinyl records--add it to a digital recording and those people who are habituated to it will begin to hear all kinds of things they like in the recording, which they don't let themselves hear (and it's not necessarily even conscious on their part) when that noise isn't there to give them permission, so to speak.

"All things" aren't generally equal, though--the low-frequency free-field response even of very good super- and hypercardioid condenser microphones generally isn't as flat or extended as the comparable response of many cardioid condensers (which in turn are inferior in this respect to wide cardioids, which are then beaten by pure pressure transducers). So it's quantity plus a specific kind of bass that people become attached to, no doubt. I hear it, too, and there are plenty of times when I like it and go for it in my recordings, especially when singers aren't involved (orchestral music, organ music, percussion ensembles).

Still, the word "thin" (which I agree applies to every low-to-medium-priced super- or hypercardioid condenser I've ever heard or tried) seems too strong a word for what a really good super- or hypercardioid can deliver, unless a person is using an exaggerated pickup of low frequencies as his standard of comparison. I don't mean that personally; I just mean in general. And my point was that while for omnis and cardioids there are good-sounding, non-thin, non-screechy, not-too-exaggerated-in-any-one-respect choices available for not too much money, the same can't be said about super- and hyper-cardioids (or figure-8s for that matter), so the inherent sonic qualities of the patterns (which is a less than fully sensical way of talking, but people do it anyway) can't be judged from the most readily available examples of those patterns.

--best regards, and happy Valentine's Day to all
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:43:31 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline raymonda

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 12:36:01 PM »


"I've recorded probably 1,200+ classical concerts with pairs of super- to- hypercardioid microphones and gotten mostly good results--not bright and not thin--but the microphones aren't inexpensive, either" DSatz

DSatz,

Where do you live of how much do you travel. 1200 classical concerts would be like doing 40 a year for 30 years. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You must have rooms full of reel to reels. We should have a listening session at your studio or home. I bet there are some great recordings there. Also, I think you must have the biggest personally recorded library of classical music known to man.

Offline raymonda

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 12:38:15 PM »
Are you a Recording Engineer for the Brooklyn School of Music?

Offline DSatz

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Re: Looking for new mics... recommendations?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 10:44:44 PM »
raymonda, 1,200+ was my rough estimate of the number of concerts that I've recorded with that particular microphone configuration--not my total number of live recordings, which I believe is well over 2,000 by now. And actually I don't use that configuration so often any more, because I'm mostly recording stuff that sounds better with other methods. I went through years of being averse to cardioids, but now I like them just fine, for example. Things change, is my point.

I've been doing this since 1972, and for many years recorded three or four concerts a week on average--a mixture of paid, professional work and volunteer work. I was a staff engineer at RCA Studios in NYC for about 14 months and received a Grammy Award for a small part in one project there. But after that I retired from the business, actually gave up all recording for a while and did several other things, and when I returned it was exclusively as a volunteer. Most recently I've gotten the opera "bug," and that's what I seem to specialize in these days--which is ironic because I never liked or understood that music until about ten years ago.

I don't have any connection with the Brookyn School of Music but have recorded concerts there and have used their hall for audition recordings--it's a lovely old space. As long as the heating system isn't making noises, it's one of the nicest nearby places to record in. Why do you ask? Do you have something to do with them? Everyone I've ever met there has been very nice to work with.

--best regards
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 07:25:37 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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