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Author Topic: Schoeps CMR Rig - Tinybox/MK4/CMR- Sarah Mclachlan Samples from 3/12/2011  (Read 52740 times)

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Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2010, 01:37:28 AM »
And for the life of me I can't figure out why more people have not tried this setup

Just hazarding a guess:

You're trading size (smaller box) for noise (lower output sensitivity which requires more gain) and that makes some people squeamish? ("since you pay the price for caps, why not get the performance from it" line of thought)

Only other thought was that for a while, the chain was: cap > cmr box > amp which isn't nearly as attractive, and you've essentially chopped one link out of that chain. I know lutch had done that already (with the custom church pre), but I didn't follow the discussion anymore after the initial discussion.

That is slick looking though.

On an unrelated note; you have the same carpet I had in my last apt. I recognize that stuff anywhere. :P

Yeh thats the carpet in the basement ;D  And on a unrelated note ;) the littlebit of sensitivity lost didn't bother me in the least, I honestly think it amounts to next to nothing for live music, i can see where it might be a issue for recording mosquito farts though ;D

Offline illconditioned

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2010, 02:52:50 AM »
And for the life of me I can't figure out why more people have not tried this setup

Just hazarding a guess:

You're trading size (smaller box) for noise (lower output sensitivity which requires more gain) and that makes some people squeamish? ("since you pay the price for caps, why not get the performance from it" line of thought)

Only other thought was that for a while, the chain was: cap > cmr box > amp which isn't nearly as attractive, and you've essentially chopped one link out of that chain. I know lutch had done that already (with the custom church pre), but I didn't follow the discussion anymore after the initial discussion.

That is slick looking though.

On an unrelated note; you have the same carpet I had in my last apt. I recognize that stuff anywhere. :P
I don't believe you should lose anything going directly into mic-in on a Sony or Edirol.  Those CMR are designed to output standard levels, comparable to a lav mic, or anything else you would put into a wireless transmitter.

The preamps in the Sony are quite a bit quieter than the Edirol R09 (and probably the R09HR too).  For moderate levels, either rig should be fine.

Someone should market a setup like this for AKG caps.  That is the simplest possible design, a collette with a FET and few resistors, and a 60V polarizing circuit.  Hmm.  An even simpler way to build this would be to take a USB mic and replace the capsule with an AKG CK61,2,3 (hardwire it).  I tried an Apex USB stereo mic, but it had crazy loud circuit noise.  Maybe there are some better USB mic circuits.

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Offline page

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2010, 12:16:27 PM »
I don't believe you should lose anything going directly into mic-in on a Sony or Edirol.  Those CMR are designed to output standard levels, comparable to a lav mic, or anything else you would put into a wireless transmitter.

The preamps in the Sony are quite a bit quieter than the Edirol R09 (and probably the R09HR too).  For moderate levels, either rig should be fine.

You think the mic in noise levels for the handhelds are loud enough (relatively speaking) that the recorder's noise will be encountered first?

I saw you run the akgs directly in, and they have a hot mv/pa output rating (~30 mv/pa). The delivered CMC6 body has a rating of 13 mv/pa and the CMR is down to 8. Thats an additional 12db of gain you're looking to add to match the akgs and you'd be doing it on the recorder (well, Rob's doing it on the littlebox, but my point stands if your doing a mic-in directly to the recorder).

All this is mental stimulation as:

I honestly think it amounts to next to nothing for live music, i can see where it might be a issue for recording mosquito farts though ;D

I agree, for loud live music like we typically record, this is largely second hand to functionality as the noise floor of the room will most likely trump any noise floor of the mic, amp, or recorder (or be close enough that you don't care). I wouldn't use it for nature recordings, and I'd think twice before using it with quiet acoustic music though.
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Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2010, 12:33:14 PM »
Well my first run with it will be friday night with back to back cowboy junkies shows which can range from quiet to medium loud, but the littlebox has i think +32 gain so that makes up the difference of the lost 12bd(where you are locked in at +20 on the nbox, which caused some distortion in a couple loud shows). I will post some samples next week after the shows.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 12:35:12 PM by Darktrain »

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2010, 01:32:21 PM »
And for the life of me I can't figure out why more people have not tried this setup

The CMR's are neat..  I have thought a generic version that supports many types of caps would be great.

There are a lot of situations where having balanced cables is critical, so it's hard for me to give up my cmc6's. And I already have KC5's.   Examples: running on stage, above stage, split mics, hanging mics from the ceiling mid-floor, etc.  While I have run 4061's with absurdly long cables and had decent results, it isn't something I want to risk.

In terms of gain with schoeps or MG's, I often run 40, or 50 dB when recording unamplified material.  And even amplified, 40 or 45 is common.  55 or 60dB with classical guitar.  These are very quiet rooms, so the noise floor is a huge concern.

In another post, it was mentioned that the 20dB of the nbox is too much gain in some situations and results in distortion.  Blame the handheld recorder, not the nbox.

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2010, 01:40:03 PM »
...not to jinx myself but I got the feeling I will not be letting this rig go anytime soon...

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Offline edtyre

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2010, 01:54:39 PM »
(where you are locked in at +20 on the nbox, which caused some distortion in a couple loud shows).
Lets get the facts straight here, the Nbox doesn't cause any distortion, it was the original R-09's that were the problem on a handful of the hundreds of shows recorded with the Nbox's.

I really take offense to this sort of Nbox bashing. This is a tremendous product and a great resource for the taping community. Nicky has done a great job repairing and servicing these boxes.
I have friends in London, Oslo, Berlin and Tokyo that are using these boxes and have no problem getting them to Nicky. From my own experience, i have owned 2 different Nbox's and the only repairs
that were needed were from my rough use which caused the problems. Nothing has ever gone wrong
with the box itself.

A few more observations.....
With the use of rechargeables the battery issue is a non-issue. 7 hours on 4 rechargeables is enough time for anyone's use. About the weight.....you have to be kidding me, anyone can carry one of these attached to your body without even noticing its there.
About the gain......when i run it into my R-44 for open taping and crank the gain, the sound is clean.
Same for the low pro situations running into my R-09HR, crank the gain extremely high for those low
volume shows and the sound is very clean.

You know the CMR's have been around for a few years now and there haven't been too many recordings made with these? Why is that?
Here's a few facts, i checked a couple of places online that host shows and here's what i found:

The number is shows recorded with each device.

Live Music Archive
nbox=813
cmr=20

Dimeadozen
nbox= 240
cmr=0

Traders Den
nbox=232
cmr=0

Etree
nbox=242
cmr=0

totals
nbox=1527
cmr=20


music>mics>pre>recorder

Offline midside

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2010, 02:10:35 PM »
I've never used the nbox, but 7 hours on (4) 9V would be an issue for me.  I record 'in the field', I am sometimes gone for weeks without regular power for recharging.  With a lemosax, I can get 20+ hours recording time with (2) ultralife batteries.  While in the field, power availability and weight (batteries/charger) become an issue.  Keep in mind, I am not talking down the nbox, I have never even used it, I am just stating that different people need different tools for the job at hand.  The nbox might be the right tool for some people, the lemosax 'was' the right tool for me, and the CMR set might be best for others.

Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2010, 02:31:19 PM »
(where you are locked in at +20 on the nbox, which caused some distortion in a couple loud shows).
Lets get the facts straight here, the Nbox doesn't cause any distortion, it was the original R-09's that were the problem on a handful of the hundreds of shows recorded with the Nbox's.

I really take offense to this sort of Nbox bashing. This is a tremendous product and a great resource for the taping community. Nicky has done a great job repairing and servicing these boxes.
I have friends in London, Oslo, Berlin and Tokyo that are using these boxes and have no problem getting them to Nicky. From my own experience, i have owned 2 different Nbox's and the only repairs
that were needed were from my rough use which caused the problems. Nothing has ever gone wrong
with the box itself.

A few more observations.....
With the use of rechargeables the battery issue is a non-issue. 7 hours on 4 rechargeables is enough time for anyone's use. About the weight.....you have to be kidding me, anyone can carry one of these attached to your body without even noticing its there.
About the gain......when i run it into my R-44 for open taping and crank the gain, the sound is clean.
Same for the low pro situations running into my R-09HR, crank the gain extremely high for those low
volume shows and the sound is very clean.

You know the CMR's have been around for a few years now and there haven't been too many recordings made with these? Why is that?
Here's a few facts, i checked a couple of places online that host shows and here's what i found:

The number is shows recorded with each device.

Live Music Archive
nbox=813
cmr=20

Dimeadozen
nbox= 240
cmr=0

Traders Den
nbox=232
cmr=0

Etree
nbox=242
cmr=0

totals
nbox=1527
cmr=20

Definately not meant to bash the nbox because my best recording ever was with one, I was just stating personally what issues i had with it thats all, i encountered distortion in a couple loud shows into the pmd620 because the +20 was just to hot for it. So i always wanted something that could be "more flexible", sorry if you got offended Edtyre, wasn't meant that way at all.

Offline schoepsnbox

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2010, 03:36:11 PM »

Definately not meant to bash the nbox because my best recording ever was with one


and you will likely be hard pressed to make another recording like it :P

Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2010, 03:48:41 PM »

Definately not meant to bash the nbox because my best recording ever was with one


and you will likely be hard pressed to make another recording like it :P

It will be very interesting friday because i am seeing the same band in the same venue i did that recording in so this will be a very nice comparison

Offline johnw

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Almost Complete, Modded Littlebox Back
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2010, 06:44:38 PM »
Looks great! That is definitely a sweet setup. Sounds like the littlebox should solve your problems.
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Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - First Run last night 3/19 - SWEEEEEEEEET
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2010, 07:37:23 PM »
So, had the maiden voyage last night with the cmr's and littlebox, I ran the first show with the MK4's and the second with the MK41's, had the Sony M10 set to 5-6 and the litttlebox was dialed in around 1-2 so still had plenty of gain to work with but i ran conservative. Got to say both sets sound very nice and clean, This show only confirmed what i thought, this is a killer setup and capable of recording pretty quiet stuff which the Junkies play at times so there will be no worries from me if i have enough gain. This setup is here to stay. I will try to get some samples posted today or tomorrow. I think with the option now of custom made pre that is not only inexpensive but sounds fantastic that the CMR's will start to get a little more attention.

Offline lastubbe

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - First Run last night 3/19 - SWEEEEEEEEET
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2010, 08:01:56 PM »
Nice work Robb.  I'm seeing the Junkies on 4/15.

I'm suprised you're unloading the 4's considering you're rocking the new setup.  Love those caps, especially up close.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 08:03:56 PM by lastubbe »
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Offline su6oxone

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - First Run last night 3/19 - SWEEEEEEEEET
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2010, 08:30:35 PM »
Got to say both sets sound very nice and clean

Hope you upload both sets to LMA... would love to check them out.

 

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