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Author Topic: Schoeps CMR Rig - Tinybox/MK4/CMR- Sarah Mclachlan Samples from 3/12/2011  (Read 52750 times)

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stevetoney

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2010, 04:45:39 PM »
Hi!

This rig seems great... Is there any technical reason recordings made with this rig would have lower quality than with an nbox rig?

What kind of schoeps cmr's would be the right ones? just the plain ones? (I saw they had some particular others too)

-Colargol

It's fairly clear that there are two distinct and different trains of thought about the CMR setup.  One is based on the technical side of the discussion, the other is based on the sound results.

On the one hand, people are discussing the merits of higher voltage to the capsules and, it seems that those are technical discussions which have validity to people that are into the technical aspects of the setup.

On the other hand, people that are simply assessing the setup based on the sound output seem to have a hard time conclusively showing that the sound is better with one rig or another. 

In the end, I think the answer of which is better is dependent upon how each individual person assesses their recording goals.  If your concern is with the output sound, you might reach an entirely different conclusion than if your focus is only from the technical side of this discussion.

Offline johnw

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2010, 07:21:54 PM »
I think the idea is that the Nbox and the CMRs (with littlebox setup) cost roughly the same. Nobody has done a head to head comparison. The CMRs sound good. Whether they sound better, the same as or worse than other schoeps setups including the Nbox is a question that is difficult to answer. The only way to compare them right now is by the published specs. The CMRs have lower sensitivity. When combined with a capsule they are longer than a similar setup with an Nbox or KCx schoeps cable and would not produce the same result if placed into the standard Kwon type bars.

The dilemma of which to buy is the same that I faced a little over a year ago. A proper comparison would be the only way to put to rest some of these questions. I have an MK41>Nbox>M10 rig, but don't get to Chicago very often. At some point however I'd like to set up a good comparison with Darktrain.
Schoeps MK41 & MK4V  |  Schoeps CMC6, Schoeps KCY, AKI/2C, PFA, Nbox Cable/PFA  |  Grace V2, Nbox Platinum  |  SD744T, SD MixPre 6, Sony PCM M10

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Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2010, 07:41:11 PM »
For me coupling the cmrs with the battery box is the real difference, its a whole lot smaller and lighter than a littlebox or nbox to use "not so open" which is what most of my shows are, i had a nbox and it sounded great but the real reason i went cmr was that tiny battery box for sure and so far the results have not disapointed, i mean a sony m10 and the bb is about as small a profile as you can get, and the little extra length on the cmr is not a issue at all and i mount them exactly like i did the regular schoeps cables

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2010, 10:59:59 AM »


Not trying to hijack your thread Robb but this may be of interest to some here:

No affiliation

Schoeps MK41 Nickel Hypercardioid

Schoeps MK41 Capsule in Nickel. Superb condition

$650.00 - Buy It Now

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220594903797&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
hot licks > microphones > recorder



...ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey...

Offline midside

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2010, 07:09:54 PM »
Actually, a CCM setup straight into a recorder with phantom power is much smaller that using a CMR/BB rig.....


Offline nottingham

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2010, 07:16:53 PM »
Quote
Actually, a CCM setup straight into a recorder with phantom power is much smaller that using a CMR/BB rig.....

Full size XLR’s are larger then my BB. Also I can change caps without spending another 3000.00.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 07:28:28 PM by nottingham »
Schoeps MK4-MK41>cmc6/Nbob actives/Naiant LB/Naiant TB > Sony M10/PMD620

Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2010, 08:22:24 PM »
Actually, a CCM setup straight into a recorder with phantom power is much smaller that using a CMR/BB rig.....

Not sure why you would make such a claim, I guess just trying to piss on the CMR parade ;D If your refering to using a Zoom product with phantom then thats not a fair comparison either since know one really does that much fo live"loud" music with good results and the regular xlr do take up a lot of space. It woud esentially take up the same space if not more than the m10/bb combo. The bb measures 3.2 X 2.1 x .9, thats pretty dam small, couple that with the M10 and then the mini xlrs and thats "TIGHT" and like nottingham said the cmr's are capable of changing caps, not sure why people are hesitant on these but seems the message is getting out, i have had 3 people inquiry with me who are really serious about going this route. IMO, you can't go wrong.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 11:22:59 PM by Darktrain »

Offline midside

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2010, 12:48:22 AM »
Hey there,

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade.
Your setup is slick.  Your setup is beautiful.  I'm sure it sounds wonderful.

Actually, I have suggested a rig like yours to others and think that it is a great option.
I have not problems with it whatsoever.
Actually, a couple years ago when the CMRs first came out, I looked into them extensively and weighed them as a viable option.

There are just a coupe things. First of all, I was responding to this comment:
"...i mean a sony m10 and the bb is about as small a profile as you can get..."

Yes, you are correct, but the key word is ABOUT.
I am not incredibly versed with all the options of the small recorders on the market, but I do know that there are some options out there that are very small, sound good and have phantom power.  In addition, not all of them have full sized XLR ins.

The miniR82, is just a tad bigger than the Sony and is an all in one solution for phantom powered mics.

Here's a couple photos with full bodies:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/49218d1201105571-post-pictures-your-portable-recording-equipment-minir82-p2.jpg
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/49217d1201105372-post-pictures-your-portable-recording-equipment-minir82.jpg

But, you can easily run CCMs, they do not need to have XLRs.
Sure, we can debate the price factor and we can also say that you cannot swap caps...true to both.
But, someone else may be able to help out here, I'm sure there is another recorder out there that will run CCMs just fine for much less money.  In addition, my response was not about the most versatile system or the most economical solution.  I was just saying that the CMR/BB combo is not the simplest and smallest way to do it....that's all.

Now, back to my biggest issue.
Why on earth has Schoeps not made a product just like the CMR, but able to be powered by phantom?  That would be killer.  All the benefits of the MK actives, CMR and CCM, all in one.  Basically, a plug and play, interchangeable compact MK compatible system.  That would be ideal...who can deny that?

Nevertheless, congratulations on the sweet rig, it is pretty!

Offline illconditioned

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2010, 01:34:32 AM »
(cut)
Now, back to my biggest issue.
Why on earth has Schoeps not made a product just like the CMR, but able to be powered by phantom?  That would be killer.  All the benefits of the MK actives, CMR and CCM, all in one.  Basically, a plug and play, interchangeable compact MK compatible system.  That would be ideal...who can deny that?

Any phantom adapter would work, something like DPA or a homebuilt unit.  Just need to reduce 48V to 5V or so for the CMRs.

I still think it is better to run all low voltage if possible.  Stepping the voltage up to 48V and back down to power the CMRs does not make sense, just burns battery power.  I would only do this if I wanted to run a long cable.  That is, run 50 or 100' of standard mic cable, then a phantom adapter, then 5 or 6' of wire to a CMR.  But for what we do, especially stealth, the CMRs seem ideal.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline midside

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2010, 01:40:16 AM »
Golly, perhaps I didn't explain this well enough....

I am talking about something like a CCM, Schoeps line of compact microphones that run off phantom power.
But, with removable capsules, like the CMR or active cables.

I am not talking about a CMR with a power adapter to set down the phantom.

The product I am speaking of would be powering exactly the same way as a CCM or CMC and the capsules would be interchangeable.

This 'ideal' product is a concept, it does not exist....it should!

But, that's just my opinion :)

(just imagine CCM microphones with removable caps, this is not the same as a CMR with a phantom power set down circuit)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 01:42:31 AM by midside »

Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2010, 08:29:59 AM »
Hey there,

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade.
Your setup is slick.  Your setup is beautiful.  I'm sure it sounds wonderful.

Actually, I have suggested a rig like yours to others and think that it is a great option.
I have not problems with it whatsoever.
Actually, a couple years ago when the CMRs first came out, I looked into them extensively and weighed them as a viable option.

There are just a coupe things. First of all, I was responding to this comment:
"...i mean a sony m10 and the bb is about as small a profile as you can get..."

Yes, you are correct, but the key word is ABOUT.
I am not incredibly versed with all the options of the small recorders on the market, but I do know that there are some options out there that are very small, sound good and have phantom power.  In addition, not all of them have full sized XLR ins.

The miniR82, is just a tad bigger than the Sony and is an all in one solution for phantom powered mics.

Here's a couple photos with full bodies:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/49218d1201105571-post-pictures-your-portable-recording-equipment-minir82-p2.jpg
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/49217d1201105372-post-pictures-your-portable-recording-equipment-minir82.jpg

But, you can easily run CCMs, they do not need to have XLRs.
Sure, we can debate the price factor and we can also say that you cannot swap caps...true to both.
But, someone else may be able to help out here, I'm sure there is another recorder out there that will run CCMs just fine for much less money.  In addition, my response was not about the most versatile system or the most economical solution.  I was just saying that the CMR/BB combo is not the simplest and smallest way to do it....that's all.

Now, back to my biggest issue.
Why on earth has Schoeps not made a product just like the CMR, but able to be powered by phantom?  That would be killer.  All the benefits of the MK actives, CMR and CCM, all in one.  Basically, a plug and play, interchangeable compact MK compatible system.  That would be ideal...who can deny that?

Nevertheless, congratulations on the sweet rig, it is pretty!

Thanks for the cudos, I don't know if i would throw a 5k recorder into the mix though, thats not so simple :P

Offline chronictonicbear

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2010, 09:31:20 PM »
one could hack the end off of the full size xlr on a ccm & terminate with a ta3, then make a ta3>stubbie xlr to plug into the tascam handheld recorder with phantom, which i hear sounds good, but crappy battery life (of course that could change with a new model) or some recorders supply phantom via trs connectors whcih could be wired correctly

of course the cmbi option allows cap swapping & you can plug in to any small handheld recorder, even comes with the cables needed. the bodies are smaller tha cmc however they are a lil awkward on a low pro situation. i owned a pair for many years & had great results with them

i've wanted (& have been waiting for) an interchangable ccm option for more than 15+ years, still nothing...... so sadly i don't think they are in a hurry

for many things i record i often prefer having the full functionality (better sensitivity & noise floor) of the schoeps bodies & active series those are the main reasons which have steered me away from using the cmr set up. from day to day i may record a bird, the human voice, acoustic music, or shove a mic in front of an amp turned up to 11 so having the flexibility of mics that can perform those tasks are what i usually have in mind

however i've always has a side of me that wanted to use a cmr set up with my wireless but couldn't justify spending the money to occasionally put it to use, now with all this talk and new devices from naiant maybe i can justify the purchase ...... something like this for me would just be for fun, but shouldn't everything for fun ....


Offline Dkrogh

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2010, 02:32:04 AM »
So what is the damage ($$) for the CMR>bb ?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 03:26:28 AM by Dkrogh »
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Offline darktrain

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2010, 09:52:30 AM »
So what is the damage ($$) for the CMR>bb ?

For a set of 2 cables  its about 1100.00 and for a bb that could run anywhere from 50-250 just depends on who does it or if you make one yourself

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: NEW Schoeps CMR Rig - Sample From Elton John 4/15 added
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2010, 11:59:02 AM »
This rig seems great... Is there any technical reason recordings made with this rig would have lower quality than with an nbox rig?

I don't think it was ever clarified whether the CMR polarizes the capsule at the full 60 volts, like a schoeps body or nbox.  The lemosax only polarizes to 48v.   If not, then that would be a "technical reason".


Specifications for the CMR Microphone Amplifier: from here: http://www.schoeps.de/PDFs/Schoeps-CMR.pdf
Operating voltage: 4 - 10 Volts DC
Current requirement: ca. 1 mA
Dynamic range: essentially the same as with a standard CMC microphone amplifier. For example with the
MK 4 cardioid, the sensitivity is 13 mV/Pa, the maximum sound pressure is 132 dB SPL and
the equivalent input noise is 24 dB CCIR** or 15 dB A-weighted*.
Frequency response: The frequency response characteristic will be that of the capsule which is chosen.

Maximum output voltage: 900 mV with 20 kOhm load impedance (ca. -1 dBV)
560 mV with 2 kOhm load impedance (ca. -5 dBV)
Output impedance: 15 Ohms at 1 kHz
Length: 8 mm (not counting rubber cable bushing and capsule)
Diameter: 20 mm
Weight, without cable or capsule: 25 g (0.88 oz.)
Length of the output cable: as determined by customer at time of order
Diameter of the output cable : 3 mm
Output connector: determined by customer at time of order, to fit the equipment with which the


Specifications for Complete Microphones: MK -- Capsules with CMC 6 Microphone Amplifier
MK 4 cardioid 40 Hz – 20 kHz* 13 mV/Pa 24 dB 15 dB 79 dB 132 dB

from here: http://www.schoeps.de/documents/Schoeps-Manual_CMC_MK_E_11-2009.pdf

« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 12:24:29 PM by NOLAfishwater »

 

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