Topic: Shotgun setup?

[splumer]

So, if you've seen my post in "Rig Pictures," you'll know I have access to a Schoeps CMIT 5u shotgun (but only one  ) and a bunch of Beyerdynamic MC 836 shotgun mics. Since they're somewhat better than my current mics, I'm planning on using them to record my next show (with all the car repairs I've had lately, that could be a long time from now!). So, I searched here for info, and looked at the data sheet from Beyer, and did a Google search for shotgun stereo techniques, but haven't found anything conclusive.

The polar pattern on the data sheet showed a pickup pattern that didn't look all that different from a cardioid. In fact, the data sheet lists the pickup pattern as "lobe/cardioid." It's here (the left pattern):


So, my question is, should I treat this as a shotgun, and if I do, what is a good setup in a large outdoor amphitheater? Or is it close enough to cardioid that I use them XY?

Phish and DMB at Blossom Music Center are the shows I had in mind.

[SmokinJoe]

I'm not familiar with the mics you mentioned, but I've had Nak guns and Senn ME66's, so I'll answer from my experience with those, thinking this is generic to most shotgun mics (if I'm mistaken I'm sure somebody will correct me).

The polar pattern varies considerably with frequency... at low frequencies, it is almost cardioid, but at high frequencies it's really focused.  I suspect the ones you have follow that trend to some extent.

General starting point for running guns is "point them at the outside of the stacks".

Speaking only for myself, if I had only one Schoeps, and a bunch of Beyers, I'd run a pair of Beyers rather than one of each.  If you can run 3 or 4 channels, a pair of Beyers outside the stacks, the Schoeps pointed straight ahead, and an omni, and play with a mix at home.

[runonce]

I'm not familiar with the mics you mentioned, but I've had Nak guns and Senn ME66's, so I'll answer from my experience with those, thinking this is generic to most shotgun mics (if I'm mistaken I'm sure somebody will correct me).

The polar pattern varies considerably with frequency... at low frequencies, it is almost cardioid, but at high frequencies it's really focused.  I suspect the ones you have follow that trend to some extent.

General starting point for running guns is "point them at the outside of the stacks".

Speaking only for myself, if I had only one Schoeps, and a bunch of Beyers, I'd run a pair of Beyers rather than one of each.  If you can run 3 or 4 channels, a pair of Beyers outside the stacks, the Schoeps pointed straight ahead, and an omni, and play with a mix at home.

I never understood the "outside the stacks" thing...although I've heard that advice for decades. I guess the idea is if you put a shot gun too much on axis, they might get a bit chirpy.

I do it two ways...

I've always liked to run them about 3 feet apart pointed right at the stacks...with as little angle as possible. More stereo-y, but sometimes dark sounding.

Or - the classic "V" - About 10 inches apart. Pointed at stacks...something like 60 degrees...

Remember - the actual mic element in interference tube guns is at the bottom of the tube. Generally, there is some some space/vents between the tube and the actual mic element. I think the angle patterns expose more of the mic element at the bottom of the tube to direct sound...(and use the tube less) - Running them straight at the source forces more sound down the tube, for more "shotgun-ness"

[DSatz]

Shotgun microphones are a funny mix: At low and low-mid frequencies they are just ordinary directional microphones (e.g. supercardioid) with a long nose that sometimes gets in the way, while at high frequencies their pattern is narrower on account of the slotted tube in front of the capsule, but that pattern also tends to be irregular.

As a result, shotgun microphones aren't suitable for coincident or closely spaced stereo pickup, because those techniques depend on microphones having uniform directivity across the frequency band and smooth off-axis response.

If you must use shotgun microphones for music recording, M/S is the stereo technique I would recommend. Put a good figure-8 microphone at the back of the slotted tube where the shotgun's capsule is (it's NOT at the tip of the mike!). There are photos of this technique on Schoeps' Web site. And the CMIT 5 that you say you have available is very definitely a couple of classes in quality above the Beyers, so that's the one I'd recommend using.

Don't assume that the narrower (at high frequencies) pattern of the shotgun can allow you to record clearly at any greater distance than any other kind of directional microphone would let you do; that's not what shotgun microphones are about. You still need to choose your recording position with care so that the balance between direct and reverberant sound energy at the microphones is a good one.

--best regards

[splumer]

Thanks for the replies. Looking again at the polar pattern diagram, the pickup pattern does indeed narrow at higher frequencies: 8000Hz is quite narrow, whereas 125Hz is as wide as most cardioids. Food for thought. I think what I'll do is experiment. Phish will probably be the first show I use them at, and it my recording doesn't turn out well I suspect there will be another taper or two there, so I can get a copy. Thanks again!

[SmokinJoe]

I never understood the "outside the stacks" thing...although I've heard that advice for decades. I guess the idea is if you put a shot gun too much on axis, they might get a bit chirpy.

I always thought of it as this... it's basically pointed at stacks, but rather than aim at the center of the stack, point at the outside edge of the cabinet or maybe even "half a cabinet" wider, but no more than that.  There is "some" width to that narrow lobe (30 degrees?), and so by shooting for a few degrees outside you will get basically the same thing as if you were shooting for the center, but it helps ensure you get less of the RIGHT stack bleed in the LEFT mic and vice versa.

I'm not saying that it's magic.  I'm just saying that's what I learned to do, it made sense, and I continued with decent results.  But I have found that some of my pulls were bass heavy...  so maybe just point at the center of the stacks is best.

[setboy]

I have used the V set up the most when i run guns. But i am no expert and just tape for my self. so for all i know they could sound like crap to everyone else 

[run_run_run]

point and hope was my philosophy with Nak 300s guns.