my first soundboard recording...what happened??

[fuzzyt11]

Hey folks. I had my first chance to do a soundboard recording and it turned out to be my worst recording job so far. I am not sure what has gone wrong. I had decent quality cables and the sound guy plugged them in for me. I set the recording level way down as the sound coming through was very high. I had the level at 3 out of 30 so it wouldn't clip during the recording. The entire show (both bands) sounds horrible. Vocals were rough (barely listenable) but the instruments sound like they are mashed together and sounds like everything clips out. I am wondering if anyone has an idea on this. I know it is not the disc as the music between sets (from cd) turned out pretty good and I recorded the soundcheck with a small mic and it turned out really nice. I should have stuck with the mic I guess. My recorder is a Sony Hi-MD model number is MZ-RH1. I have had great success until this mess.
any suggestions??

cheers
Rob

[rastasean]

you were going line-in into the rh1, right? can you post an mp3 sample?

[fuzzyt11]

I went line in to the mic input as my other choice is line in (opt). Unfortunately, I didn't try the opt input. I wanted to check them both out but didn't. I haven't uploaded the recording yet but when I do, I will try and post an mp3 clip for you to check out. I am hoping to solve the problem before the next time the band is back in town (June 2010)

cheers

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm guessing the analog output from the SBD overloaded the analog inputs on your recorder (as opposed to clipping the ADC).  You have a couple options:  <1> ask the sound engineer to turn down the output feed, <2> use attenuators between the SBD and your recorder, <3> use a recorder capable of receiving a stronger signal.  First option should work just fine, I think.

Found it...DSatz's excellent summary of the different stages at which one may encounter analog overload:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=93033.msg1597319#msg1597319

[su6oxone]

Yep, sounds like your inputs were overloaded by a hot SBD source.  Definitely should try to check levels with at least the pre-show music to see how hot the signal is and then ask the sound guy to adjust accordingly. 

[Belexes]

I carry attenuators for just such a situation. Even if the FOH engineer turns the levels down on his end, the signal may still be too hot.

[rastasean]

I went line in to the mic input as my other choice is line in (opt). Unfortunately, I didn't try the opt input. I wanted to check them both out but didn't. I haven't uploaded the recording yet but when I do, I will try and post an mp3 clip for you to check out. I am hoping to solve the problem before the next time the band is back in town (June 2010)

cheers

I'm pretty sure you need to go line in. the optical just means it can function as optical or analog line-in. I made the same mistake when recording a speech when i had soundboard access. Early in the day I was going mic-in until someone said I would be overloading the inputs so I switched to line-in on my minidisc recorder and later when I listened to it, line-in was much better.

editing:
http://www.sony.co.uk/product/paw-minidisc---net-md-walkman/mz-rh1/tab/technicalspecs


but as others say, carry attenuator cable with you just in case.

[acidjack]

Also, I don't know what your arrangement was with the engineer, but unless (a) the engineer is producing a custom mix for you (i.e., not the PA mix) or (b) you have a 4-track machine or at least have room mics somewhere, your SBD won't sound very good, more than likely, even if you aren't getting overloaded.   PA mixes sound pretty awful in many cases unless you are in a very large room where all sound is through the PA.  None of the SBD feeds I have ever gotten would have been acceptable as standalone recordings. 

[Jerseyboy]

The guy over at Core Sound sells a cable you can use that might help prevent the overload.

http://www.core-sound.com/attenuator-cables/1.php

[fuzzyt11]

cheers guys. I did wonder if it could have been that the output was too loud. I had to turn my record levels down to next to nothing. Something I have never had to do before. After reading all the messages, it definately seems easier to just record with my mic. It is nothing special but has turned out pretty nice most times. Never ended up with the mess this recording turned out like. I will definately try the other line in (opt) next time to see what it is like. It just seems weird to me that pre-recorded music turned out alright and then the live tracks are horrible. Too many tracks going in at once I guess...

thanks again

[page]

cheers guys. I did wonder if it could have been that the output was too loud. I had to turn my record levels down to next to nothing. Something I have never had to do before. After reading all the messages, it definately seems easier to just record with my mic. It is nothing special but has turned out pretty nice most times. Never ended up with the mess this recording turned out like. I will definately try the other line in (opt) next time to see what it is like. It just seems weird to me that pre-recorded music turned out alright and then the live tracks are horrible. Too many tracks going in at once I guess...

thanks again

1) Your optical will only work if it's fed a digital signal, special hardware between the board and your MD recorder will be needed to do the analog>digital conversion.
2) get attenuators as others have mentioned. -10db minimum, maybe -20db. Some of our pro recorders here can handle a +25db signal before the analog stage distorts. Some prosumer hardware has issues around +2db, and some consumer hardware at signals lower. I'd wager that the soundboard was puting out a hot (say, +15db) signal, and your MD can't handle anything over -2 or +2db, and turning down your gain isn't going to solve that (a couple other recorders that we know about here will exhibit the same trait, the levels look ok, but it's trash upon listening back) because it sounds like the gain stage is after the analog stage where it's being overloaded.
3) Pre-show music is typically quieter to the order of about 10db or more in my experience.

[datbrad]

cheers guys. I did wonder if it could have been that the output was too loud. I had to turn my record levels down to next to nothing. Something I have never had to do before. After reading all the messages, it definately seems easier to just record with my mic. It is nothing special but has turned out pretty nice most times. Never ended up with the mess this recording turned out like. I will definately try the other line in (opt) next time to see what it is like. It just seems weird to me that pre-recorded music turned out alright and then the live tracks are horrible. Too many tracks going in at once I guess...

thanks again

1) Your optical will only work if it's fed a digital signal, special hardware between the board and your MD recorder will be needed to do the analog>digital conversion.
2) get attenuators as others have mentioned. -10db minimum, maybe -20db. Some of our pro recorders here can handle a +25db signal before the analog stage distorts. Some prosumer hardware has issues around +2db, and some consumer hardware at signals lower. I'd wager that the soundboard was puting out a hot (say, +15db) signal, and your MD can't handle anything over -2 or +2db, and turning down your gain isn't going to solve that (a couple other recorders that we know about here will exhibit the same trait, the levels look ok, but it's trash upon listening back) because it sounds like the gain stage is after the analog stage where it's being overloaded.
3) Pre-show music is typically quieter to the order of about 10db or more in my experience.

Just to clarify: On this minidisk unit, like other palm recorders with this style input, the optical/line combo input is a 1/8" jack that has a deeper position for a special optical cable. If a normal 1/8" stereo jack is plugged in feeding a line level, it will work. Your issue was running a line level signal through the mic preamp stage on the recorder. You may have been just fine if you had gone line in.

That being said, most recorders with consumer level unbalaced line inputs will overload the active electronics at the inputs with a hot SBD feed, so using attenuators is also a good idea. In most cases, recorders that have balanced pro level line inputs can take a hot SBD feed without overloading and don't require attenuators. Good luck in the future.

[page]

Your issue was running a line level signal through the mic preamp stage on the recorder. You may have been just fine if you had gone line in.

shit, I need to quit reading TS before 10am... This is why I'm the last to show up to the office every morning.