Topic: AT9XX/8XX question for AT mini experts - overloading at high SPL

[midside]

I have some AT933s that were originally from SP and converted them to 3-wire to use with a phantom power adapter (I have a Samson).  My intention was to use these for close miking my congas for stage performance.  First, I tested the setup by recording my stereo in comparison to my Schoeps and thought that these should 'do the trick' for my purpose.  But, when used  in close proximity to the congas they go into distortion before clipping...obviously overloading the capsules, not the preamp.  Of course moving them further away can help with the problem but I prefer to have them just a few inches from the head to minimize bleed as I frequently play in small clubs, in tight spaces and close to other instruments, PA and so on.

So, the question is, anyone out there pretty familiar with using these mics in this kind of situation or know more about high SPL handling/characteristics with these?

Thanks!

[M]

Maybe you could try using at853 caps.  I *think I remember hearing that the 853 is better than the 933 for high spl.  I use 853 caps on 933 bodies three wire and have used them in extremely loud situations and I can't hear any distortion.

not an expert and also not that helpful,     

[Church-Audio]

I have some AT933s that were originally from SP and converted them to 3-wire to use with a phantom power adapter (I have a Samson).  My intention was to use these for close miking my congas for stage performance.  First, I tested the setup by recording my stereo in comparison to my Schoeps and thought that these should 'do the trick' for my purpose.  But, when used  in close proximity to the congas they go into distortion before clipping...obviously overloading the capsules, not the preamp.  Of course moving them further away can help with the problem but I prefer to have them just a few inches from the head to minimize bleed as I frequently play in small clubs, in tight spaces and close to other instruments, PA and so on.

So, the question is, anyone out there pretty familiar with using these mics in this kind of situation or know more about high SPL handling/characteristics with these?

Thanks!

Sell the 933 mics and get a pair of Shure Sm58  ... I prefer them over condensers any day for conga.. Or If you must go the condenser way.. Get a pair of Beta 98 with clamps. Good mics... But really I like 58 because its got more warmth and its got a wider pattern then a 57 and it rejects feedback better then the 933 will. Another great dynamic would be the Beta 56 But the pattern on that mic is pretty tight.. So you need more gain and need to work them a little farther from the head to get your fingers and the drum sound.

Chris

[midside]

I prefer to use condensers for a couple reasons:

1.  I play really soft and really loud and they should be able to deal better with that dynamic range.
2.  I like using mini mics that attach directly to the drum.  They are easier to set up, less to transport (no stands), easier to fit in tight spaces, move when I move a drum and are less visible.

Currently, I have wanted to try the Beta 98 as I set some up on a show once (as a stage hand) on Toms, but the engineer also had me put 604s on the congas and in my opinion, the 604s sounded like ass....possibly other things came into play here, but I didn't like what I heard.  OTOH, the toms sounded fine.

Anyhow, just trying to see if I can get by for a little while with what I got.

On another note, are you sure the 58 has a wider pattern than the 57?  I thought they have the same capsules in them

[Church-Audio]

I prefer to use condensers for a couple reasons:

1.  I play really soft and really loud and they should be able to deal better with that dynamic range.
Not true actually. The dynamic range of a condenser mic is not necessarily better then a dynamic. And its pretty dam hard to overload a dynamic mic. Very easy to overload a condenser.

2.  I like using mini mics that attach directly to the drum.  They are easier to set up, less to transport (no stands), easier to fit in tight spaces, move when I move a drum and are less visible.

I would rather have good sound over "visibility" and most engineers know what to do with a 58.
You can get K&M clamps that would solve that issue of stands. And I KNOW I can get much more gain before feedback with a pair of 58's then with a pair of 933 mics.. And you need gain when your talking about congas`

Currently, I have wanted to try the Beta 98 as I set some up on a show once (as a stage hand) on Toms, but the engineer also had me put 604s on the congas and in my opinion, the 604s sounded like ass....possibly other things came into play here, but I didn't like what I heard.  OTOH, the toms sounded fine.

Yeah I hate 604 mics as well they do sound like ass.. I love 421's the originals but the clips suck..
One thing you have to remember is your on stage.. The sound guy is out front.. Never judge the sound from the stage.. The monitors can suck that does not mean that FOH will.. Many artists think they can tell whats going on from on stage.. And maybe 20 years ago that was true now with directional sound systems very little energy is sent back on stage, And during a sound check the room is EMPTY.. and reflections from the back wall will overwhelm most musicians. That's just my two cents.

Anyhow, just trying to see if I can get by for a little while with what I got.

I understand.

On another note, are you sure the 58 has a wider pattern than the 57?  I thought they have the same capsules in them

I have been mixing bands for over 20 years and yeah I AM 100% sure the 57 is tighter then the 58. Why because the phase plug in front of the capsule ( even though the main part of the capsule is the same that phase plug is completely different. And you can hear it if you have ever had two side by side.

[midside]

Thanks for the input Chris.  My skills are in ambient location recording...mainly field recording of traditional music and sometimes a little film dialog and ambient sound collection.

Though I have been a musician for most of my life, this is my first attempt to deal with my own live sound, in the past I always let the sound man do the job....and, generally speaking, I have rarely been pleased with the results.

The problem is, at least where I live and I'm guessing in many other areas, the sound man has the wrong concept on how congas are played and what they should sound like because they are more familiar with run of the mill rock, blues and jam bands versus Latino music.   Therefore, they usually deal with people that don't know how to play congas correctly, limiting the full dynamic range that these instruments have.  Usually, when I have heard a recording after the show, all I can hear is my tone and slap and I am missing the palm, tip and muffled strokes in the mix  if I am even turned up loud enough in the first place, but that us another story all together.

I would like to share an incredible conga solo for everyone's enjoyment and to demonstrate the dynamic range these instruments have in the right hands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjGgc1UkkU

Now, regarding your comments:

- You very well might be right about dynamic microphones, but from my experiences, they just did not pick up the little stuff and only picked up the louder hits, perhaps this is because not enough mics were used as they were trying to pick up 3-4 drums further from the heads with only 1 or 2 mics.  So, I just though that close miked condensers would solve that issue.

- Yes, I agree, the sound is the important part.  I just like (and sometimes need) really small, light, no stand options for tight spaces. Clip on condensers are really light and easily go on the drum with limited hardware and to do take up any extra space on stage.

- Yep, I know all about how things sound different on stage than in the audience, but my comment regarding how things sounded to me were from a show I setup and then heard from the audience as I was not talent that evening, just a hired hand.

Anyhow, I am currently using a variety of microphones and one of them (Opus 87) seems to be working pretty good and I might just get one or 2 more of them..we'll see.  It is VERY sensitive and takes almost no gain on my mixer, is hard to clip and the capsule does not overload easily.  Like I said, the Beta 98 might also be good (probably better sounding?!?),  but the Opus 87 has a super fast easy to use clamp and all the cables are integrated...not the best capsule, but a good design:
http://www.wallofsound.com.au/PA%20&%20DJ%20Hire/Beyer-Opus87.jpg

So, are we in conclusion that the mini AT caps are just too easy to overload in these situations?
I have a cheap Audix (F-90), and it was overloading when angled straight toward the head, but I gave it a major tilt to shoot it across the head and that seemed to do the trick for the time being....

p.s. in 4 out of 5 gigs that I am currently playing, we bring our own PA and run it from the stage as these are small places and they do not supply an engineer or sound equipment....

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the input Chris.  My skills are in ambient location recording...mainly field recording of traditional music and sometimes a little film dialog and ambient sound collection.

Though I have been a musician for most of my life, this is my first attempt to deal with my own live sound, in the past I always let the sound man do the job....and, generally speaking, I have rarely been pleased with the results.

The problem is, at least where I live and I'm guessing in many other areas, the sound man has the wrong concept on how congas are played and what they should sound like because they are more familiar with run of the mill rock, blues and jam bands versus Latino music.   Therefore, they usually deal with people that don't know how to play congas correctly, limiting the full dynamic range that these instruments have.  Usually, when I have heard a recording after the show, all I can hear is my tone and slap and I am missing the palm, tip and muffled strokes in the mix  if I am even turned up loud enough in the first place, but that us another story all together.

I would like to share an incredible conga solo for everyone's enjoyment and to demonstrate the dynamic range these instruments have in the right hands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjGgc1UkkU

Now, regarding your comments:

- You very well might be right about dynamic microphones, but from my experiences, they just did not pick up the little stuff and only picked up the louder hits, perhaps this is because not enough mics were used as they were trying to pick up 3-4 drums further from the heads with only 1 or 2 mics.  So, I just though that close miked condensers would solve that issue.

- Yes, I agree, the sound is the important part.  I just like (and sometimes need) really small, light, no stand options for tight spaces. Clip on condensers are really light and easily go on the drum with limited hardware and to do take up any extra space on stage.

- Yep, I know all about how things sound different on stage than in the audience, but my comment regarding how things sounded to me were from a show I setup and then heard from the audience as I was not talent that evening, just a hired hand.

Anyhow, I am currently using a variety of microphones and one of them (Opus 87) seems to be working pretty good and I might just get one or 2 more of them..we'll see.  It is VERY sensitive and takes almost no gain on my mixer, is hard to clip and the capsule does not overload easily.  Like I said, the Beta 98 might also be good (probably better sounding?!?),  but the Opus 87 has a super fast easy to use clamp and all the cables are integrated...not the best capsule, but a good design:
http://www.wallofsound.com.au/PA%20&%20DJ%20Hire/Beyer-Opus87.jpg

So, are we in conclusion that the mini AT caps are just too easy to overload in these situations?
I have a cheap Audix (F-90), and it was overloading when angled straight toward the head, but I gave it a major tilt to shoot it across the head and that seemed to do the trick for the time being....

p.s. in 4 out of 5 gigs that I am currently playing, we bring our own PA and run it from the stage as these are small places and they do not supply an engineer or sound equipment....

The opus mics are great actually I like them alot.. The best mic IMO for congas is the Sennheiser 421. I also like the EV 406 408 they are hard to find.. There tends to be less proximity effect with condenser mics then dynamics so I expect you are hearing the proximity effect of the dynamic mics and not liking it.. For me the key to getting a good conga sound is as follows..

Frequencies..

I roll off via a high pass filter around 50hz.... Anything below that is useless for live sound and just muddy's the mix..

I usually make a cut around from around 400hz to 800 hz depending on the drum. This gets the "boxy" sound out.. Taking too much away around this frequency can also make the drum disappear from the mix so careful application helps.

I then boost around 10k sparingly to bring out more of the "skin" effect of the fingers rubbing across the head of the drum.

That's about it. Congas require a really well eq'ed pa system because if not they will ring.

I like 58's because I can get them loud and I can also mic more then one drum with a single mic.. If you have channels then by all means use as many mics as possible. One of the other things I have done is use condensers as "overheads" and dynamics in close..

Check these mics out I have used them many times and they do sound great for your application if you want small.. They dont overload like the 933 will. The 933 was never designed to handle spl of a drum. Even though its rated at 138 db I suspect in real life that rating should be much lower.

http://www.music123.com/Audio-Technica-PRO-35-Cardioid-Clip-on-Instrument-Condenser-Microphone-270516-i1275241.Music123

I have used these for percussion and for mostly wind instruments. They are cheap and they do sound good. They don't require much eq in the low end because they already roll off around 50hz.



Chris

[kirk97132]

Ev has replaced the 408 with 468's.  BUt they are had to find for sale used and they go very fast when they do pop up.  But @ $200 each they aren't priced to bad.  I like them for a lot of stuff besides percussion but they are tits on a rack! 

[midside]

Chris,
Thanks for all the information...just one simple question:
Do you find that the AT caps mentioned do overload very easily and are not suitable for close miking of percussion?
I just want to know if I should scratch the idea all together.
Thanks again.

[Church-Audio]

Chris,
Thanks for all the information...just one simple question:
Do you find that the AT caps mentioned do overload very easily and are not suitable for close miking of percussion?
I just want to know if I should scratch the idea all together.
Thanks again.

The 933 was never intended for that application. So yes I would say you should look at the other AT mics I mentioned if you want good quality but small mics from AT.

Chris

[midside]

OK, thanks Chris.
I might just go with more of the Opus mics, they have a few things going for them:
- cheap
- phantom power adapter is integrated on the clamp
- cable is integrated in the goose neck
For the money, these setup up really quick with very limited mess and fuss and sound 'ok enough to do the job'.