Topic: Looking for a good omni that can run on the Sony PCM-M10 plug in power (~3v)

[landshark]

Hi all -

I'm looking for a small and sweet set of mics, probably omnis, that can run directly off the M10 plug in power.  I think it's been measured at 2.5v - ish.  That's well below most mics' requirements, unfortunately, since they usually run 5v-9v.  I think someone's running Countrymans direct in and having good luck, so I thought I'd ask out to see what's been working for others.

The goal here is for a one-piece that I can just grab and go, since sometimes hauling around a multi-piece setup a) increases the chance of something fouling up and b) is just enough additional headache that on marginal situations I'll pass on recording altogether. 

I understand that I can just use the internals, but I'm looking to build a setup that lets me place the mics a bit more optimally and hopefully gets me better sound.

All thoughts appreciated!!

Mike

[jlykos]

I use the Sonic Studios DSM-6 microphones direct but you have to be careful which one you get (they have five different models, based on sensitivity).  I have the DSM-6/L (for low sensitivity) and I still get major distortion at some of the metal shows that I tape.  If you don't tape metal and usually tape rock or something quieter, the L would be the way to go; if you tape metal, get the EL, or if you tape nature sounds or something like that, something more sensitive would be good.

[gdplusmore]

 for Countryman's B3 Low distortion at SPL up to 150dB  requires  48V Phantom Power...keep that in mind...the internals can make a nice recording if you are in the right spot..and can handle a pretty decent SPL...just use manual record mode with the
limiter turned on..

[fmaderjr]

CA-11 and AT853 (4.7 K modded) omnis can be run on the M-10's PIP according to illconditioned. The CA-14's cannot and I don't know about the CA-1's or the CAFS's. Maybe Chris will chime in here. The CA-11's still sound great even though the CA-14's are considered a step up.

[NOLAfishwater]

CA-11 and AT853 omnis can be run on the M-10's PIP according to illconditioned. The CA-14's cannot and I don't know about the CA-1's or the CAFS's. Maybe Chris will chime in here. The CA-11's still sound great even though the CA-14's are considered a step up.

CA-1's can run off the M-10 PIP.

[guysonic]

I use the Sonic Studios DSM-6 microphones direct but you have to be careful which one you get (they have five different models, based on sensitivity).  I have the DSM-6/L (for low sensitivity) and I still get major distortion at some of the metal shows that I tape.  If you don't tape metal and usually tape rock or something quieter, the L would be the way to go; if you tape metal, get the EL, or if you tape nature sounds or something like that, something more sensitive would be good.

If only interested in really, really loud mind/body/soul bashing metal type music, suggest a three piece outfit using popular DPA-4061 or similar mic requiring full voltage external battery module good for recording >135 dB SPL bass peaks. For everything less extreme agree with suggestion to consider DSM mics for getting very satisfying recordings from a two piece outfit.

FWIW All the available mics I know about working directly off M10 mic power do so at reduced maximum rated loudness handling and audible increased bass distortion when pushed.  In other words, these mics require the external battery module for cleanly handling the higher (usually bass) SPLs.

This is not true of the DSM mic models running at full bass handling performance off M10's 2.5 volts direct mic power feature.

The rig using full bandwidth precision matched pickups, custom star-quad wiring, and custom molded hard gold-over-nickel plated jack-safe output plug is shown below.

More info on other DSM models shown in the chart linked to a few of the many available recordings in Retail Section:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Hundreds more music sample recordings at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[fmaderjr]

All the available mics I know about that will run directly off M10 mic power do so at greatly reduced loudness handling and increased distortion.  This is not true of the DSM mics running at full performance off M10's 2.5 volts direct mic power feature.

All the samples of DSM mics I've heard do sound great (except for usually too much audience chatter for my taste which is true of all omnis so not the fault of the mics).

However I'd love to hear illconditioned's reply to this. I know he has said CA-11's and AT853's sound great mic in with the M10, but I don't know if what he was taping was loud.

[disco]

CA-11 and AT853 (4.7 K modded) omnis can be run on the M-10's PIP according to illconditioned. The CA-14's cannot and I don't know about the CA-1's or the CAFS's. Maybe Chris will chime in here. The CA-11's still sound great even though the CA-14's are considered a step up.

I've run my ca-14 omnis directly into my M10 with success. There's a venue in town that I need to suspend my mics inside the clamshell stage and can't find a way to suspend the preamp so I've just run it that way on a few occasions.
Here's one that's up on the archive:
http://www.archive.org/details/ag2010-07-03.ag2010-07-03.earlyshow

[xof]

I use the MKE-2 HSLO from Microphone Maddness and it works great with the plug in power from my M10. Great clarity and no distortion at all when recording classical orchestra. 130db headroom using plug in power.

[illconditioned]

I use the Sonic Studios DSM-6 microphones direct but you have to be careful which one you get (they have five different models, based on sensitivity).  I have the DSM-6/L (for low sensitivity) and I still get major distortion at some of the metal shows that I tape.  If you don't tape metal and usually tape rock or something quieter, the L would be the way to go; if you tape metal, get the EL, or if you tape nature sounds or something like that, something more sensitive would be good.

If only interested in really, really loud mind/body/soul bashing metal type music, suggest a three piece outfit using popular DPA-4061 or similar mic requiring full voltage external battery module good for recording >135 dB SPL bass peaks. All the available mics I know about that will run directly off M10 mic power do so at greatly reduced loudness handling and increased distortion.

There are really three potential problems for loud sources:
- level of mic input.  Loud level + sensitive mic -> overload mic input (use battery box + line in)
- distortion of mic (aka "brickwall") (properly wire mic, that is apply 4.7k mod if there is no source resistor already)
- inadequate powering of mic. (need battery box)


While a battery box is *sometimes* needed, plug in power is often sufficient.  I encourage people to try out the mics first.  I believe CAFS or CA-1 should work just fine (they require low current).  CA-11 and AT853 are a little tighter.  MKE2 are least likely to work (they need the highest current).   That said, any electret mic (besides DPA406x) *will* work.  It is just a question of how close you can get it to concert levels, before it runs out of juice.


  Richard

[fmaderjr]

CA-11 and AT853 (4.7 K modded) omnis can be run on the M-10's PIP according to illconditioned. The CA-14's cannot and I don't know about the CA-1's or the CAFS's. Maybe Chris will chime in here. The CA-11's still sound great even though the CA-14's are considered a step up.

I've run my ca-14 omnis directly into my M10 with success. There's a venue in town that I need to suspend my mics inside the clamshell stage and can't find a way to suspend the preamp so I've just run it that way on a few occasions.
Here's one that's up on the archive:
http://www.archive.org/details/ag2010-07-03.ag2010-07-03.earlyshow

Your recording does sound extremely good, but how loud was the band playing? According to Chris Church 2.5 volts PIP should not be nearly enough to optimally power CA-14's (he actually recommends 9 volts for all his mics, but much less than that seems to work fine). I would be reluctant to record something extremely loud that way unless others had reported doing it successfully. However the 4.6 volts provided by the Marantz PDM620 seems to work fine with CA-14's (I've done it and read of others doing it) so who knows how low the plug in power can be.

[illconditioned]

CA-11 and AT853 (4.7 K modded) omnis can be run on the M-10's PIP according to illconditioned. The CA-14's cannot and I don't know about the CA-1's or the CAFS's. Maybe Chris will chime in here. The CA-11's still sound great even though the CA-14's are considered a step up.

I've run my ca-14 omnis directly into my M10 with success. There's a venue in town that I need to suspend my mics inside the clamshell stage and can't find a way to suspend the preamp so I've just run it that way on a few occasions.
Here's one that's up on the archive:
http://www.archive.org/details/ag2010-07-03.ag2010-07-03.earlyshow

Your recording does sound extremely good, but how loud was the band playing? According to Chris Church 2.5 volts PIP should not be nearly enough to optimally power CA-14's (he actually recommends 9 volts for all his mics, but much less than that seems to work fine). I would be reluctant to record something extremely loud that way unless others had reported doing it successfully. However the 4.6 volts provided by the Marantz PDM620 seems to work fine with CA-14's (I've done it and read of others doing it) so who knows how low the plug in power can be.

Yes, you really have to try the mics out to see if they work.  A few simple measurements (voltage with and without mic plugged in) will also suffice.


My main point is that there are lots of other mics, besides Guysonic's DSM, that work on plug in power.


  Richard

[disco]

CA-11 and AT853 (4.7 K modded) omnis can be run on the M-10's PIP according to illconditioned. The CA-14's cannot and I don't know about the CA-1's or the CAFS's. Maybe Chris will chime in here. The CA-11's still sound great even though the CA-14's are considered a step up.

I've run my ca-14 omnis directly into my M10 with success. There's a venue in town that I need to suspend my mics inside the clamshell stage and can't find a way to suspend the preamp so I've just run it that way on a few occasions.
Here's one that's up on the archive:
http://www.archive.org/details/ag2010-07-03.ag2010-07-03.earlyshow

Your recording does sound extremely good, but how loud was the band playing? According to Chris Church 2.5 volts PIP should not be nearly enough to optimally power CA-14's (he actually recommends 9 volts for all his mics, but much less than that seems to work fine). I would be reluctant to record something extremely loud that way unless others had reported doing it successfully. However the 4.6 volts provided by the Marantz PDM620 seems to work fine with CA-14's (I've done it and read of others doing it) so who knows how low the plug in power can be.

the volume of the band....not terribly loud but the canopy must have captured sound well, they had a very small on stage PA, but it was outdoors and the venue is 25% floor space, the rest tables as its a restaurant. I just plugged it in while the drummer was tuning up and had it attached to the canopy above around 6-7' high, split 10', plenty of signal. After that I attached it to the canopy and watched from the bar. I did try it again when I had pre issues in a nice sounding venue with a fairly loud band inside a theater, I couldnt barely get a usable sound with the m10's pre max, likely b/c there wasn't enough power from the recorder.

[landshark]

*** UPDATE ***

So, I ran my Church CA-1 Omnis last night, direct into the MR10 using plug in power.  Venue was medium loud, we were close to the stacks, I'm guessing about 90-100db range at our seats.  The omnis performed like champs, I'm very pleased with the results.

[disco]

*** UPDATE ***

So, I ran my Church CA-1 Omnis last night, direct into the MR10 using plug in power.  Venue was medium loud, we were close to the stacks, I'm guessing about 90-100db range at our seats.  The omnis performed like champs, I'm very pleased with the results.

glad to hear things worked out