Topic: Sony PCM-M10 gain & noise

[Brian Skalinder]

I checked the specs & manual and searched TS, to no avail.  I'm sure the answer is buried in the 50+ pages of M10-dedicated threads, but I haven't found it.

How much gain does the M10 provide?
At what point does the self-noise pose issues for quiet, unamplified recording?  loud amplified recording?

[adrianf74]

I checked the specs & manual and searched TS, to no avail.  I'm sure the answer is buried in the 50+ pages of M10-dedicated threads, but I haven't found it.

How much gain does the M10 provide?
At what point does the self-noise pose issues for quiet, unamplified recording?  loud amplified recording?

Hey Brian.  I don't have anything scientific for you, however, everything I've read about the M10 seems to point that the noise floor is practically non-existant.  I believe this is one of the reasons why people are scooping them up (besides rediculous recording times).

[edtyre]

I have recorded two very quiet acoustic concerts from far back with the gain
cranked to the max, and was very pleased with the results.

[chrise]

If you're interested in the mic input, there is info here:

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

[guysonic]

FWIW most all these small recorders have two mic input gain choices.  For what I know about this dating back to the early 80's portables, ONLY the 'LOW or 20 dB' mic input sensitivity setting is truly a best choice for most all types of important-for-low-distortion audio quality purposes.   The 'HIGH or 0 dB" setting tries way too hard to push the gain of the first mic amp gain reducing both the low bass/high frequency response bandwidth, and audibly increases the distortion.

If needing more gain (not often a requirement if recording in 24 bit) go line in with a good designed external preamplifier to keep recording qualty optimized.   I have smaller than smallest deck external preamplifier models offering higher than internal mic amp optimum gain without the mentioned audio quality issues.  See these here: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#micamp

Recording in 24 bit even with REC level manual adjustment at maximum eliminates the need for more gain as post edit software allows 24 bit depth masters excellent loudness adjustment at full (audible) quality even if recording level was at or below <-20 dB FS VU.

Using the deck's internal mic powering does increase the M10's input noise a bit, but very much less that seen on other deck models featuring low voltage P-I-P mic powering features.  Keeping mic power turned off using an external battery module solves this issue, but for M10 because of its rather quieter mic powering ability, only real reason is virtually all small electret mics really require much higher than PIP deck voltages (~2.5 volts vs. external box 9 volts) to fully operate in lowest distortion modes. 
Exception to this is my own brand of DSM mics running fully optimized directly from Sony M10 and D50 model decks as described at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

[Brian Skalinder]

I should clarify.  I don't plan to run mic-in.  I will use an external preamp (I've already decided which one(s)) and run line-in.  But my external preamp won't always provide enough gain for very quiet sound sources.  So I'm interested in how much line-in gain the M10 can add.

Anyone with an M10 willing to measure the line-in gain?  This should be easy to do:

• Feed the M10 a fixed-level tone, line-in, from a playback device / Set up external mics & preamp and record a steady tone from speakers.
• Set the M10 line-in gain as low as it will go.
• Start recording.
• Change the line-in gain to as high as it will go.
• Stop recording.
• Transfer WAV to computer.
• In a WAV editor, calculate the difference in gain between the lowest level and the highest level.

Anyone?

[Cheesecadet]

I tired this at at the lowest level it started @ -38dB...but went past 0db and I could not calculate it past there since there were no positive values past 0 in my meters on my DAW.  So at least 38dB of gain....but it is more than that.

Sorry for the vague response but at least it is a jumping off point

I used a 250hz tone.

[Cheesecadet]

okay...I went back and the gain started at -38dB at just a hair above 0 on the recording dial.  0db was reached at a hair above 5 on the recording dial.  So correct me if I'm wrong, but I am thinking there is about 75dB of gain total.

Does that sound about right?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I don't have anything scientific for you, however, everything I've read about the M10 seems to point that the noise floor is practically non-existant.

Well... What you've read is just fluff

[Brian Skalinder]

Does that sound about right?

If it's linear, yes.  Not sure it is.  Thanks, though -- still helpful!

Just to confirm, this was line-in, correct?

[Cheesecadet]

Yep...Line In

[swordfish]

Yep...Line In

Just a quick question....I bought the M 10 lately and recorded 2 outdoor shows so far.  For both recordings I used the mic in with an preamp once the Tiny box(CA 14 Card) and the next time the CA ST 9100(DPA 4061).  Tried to set the M10 to recording level 6(best gain and noise what I recall).

Is that the way to go?  Or would line in be the better way to record.  Have to admit that IMO the CA 14 recording came out tad better.

I also own the R09-HR and there is supposed to be not much of difference between the R09-HR and The M10 if you go line in.

Just a hint how to proceed in the future.

Thanks,

SF

[fmaderjr]

Just a quick question....I bought the M 10 lately and recorded 2 outdoor shows so far.  For both recordings I used the mic in with an preamp once the Tiny box(CA 14 Card) and the next time the CA ST 9100(DPA 4061).  Tried to set the M10 to recording level 6(best gain and noise what I recall).

Always go line in with a pre unless the concert is very quiet and you can't get a decent level line in. Then you could try turning off the mics' plug in power and going mic in (low gain) but I've never tried it and probably never will. Line in is definitely the generally accepted procedure when using an external pre.

[swordfish]

Just a quick question....I bought the M 10 lately and recorded 2 outdoor shows so far.  For both recordings I used the mic in with an preamp once the Tiny box(CA 14 Card) and the next time the CA ST 9100(DPA 4061).  Tried to set the M10 to recording level 6(best gain and noise what I recall).

Always go line in with a pre unless the concert is very quiet and you can't get a decent level line in. Then you could try turning off the mics' plug in power and going mic in (low gain) but I've never tried it and probably never will. Line in is definitely the generally accepted procedure when using an external pre.

Maybe I miss something....I guess I read ......if I use the "line in" there is not much of a difference between the R09-HR and the Sony M10.  So the M10 is only an improvement/advantage if you have mic that is well powered by the internal "mic plug in power", because the noise floor is better on the "mic in" of the M10.  Or would a BB---->mic---Mic in M10 be the right solution if the source is loud enough.

I am just a bit confused....but that happens once in a while.

Cheers,

SF

[fmaderjr]

I guess I read ......if I use the "line in" there is not much of a difference between the R09-HR and the Sony M10.  So the M10 is only an improvement/advantage if you have mic that is well powered by the internal "mic plug in power", because the noise floor is better on the "mic in" of the M10.  Or would a BB---->mic---Mic in M10 be the right solution if the source is loud enough.

The author of that statement meant that both the M10 and HR have good line ins, but the M10 has a better mic in (though I think the HR's mic in is still pretty good). The M10 should be able to handle a loud concert mic in with a battery box and it should sound excellent. Line in with a preamp will also sound excellent, but you'll have a bit more to hide if you're stealthing.