Topic: comparison of Schoeps MK21 and MK4V

[braweave]

At some point in the future I am wanting to add some cards of some sort.  I have this narrowed down to either MK21's or MK4v's. (i just don't care for the MK4's)

I would be running Caps > KC5 > CMC6Xt > SD MP-2 > R-09HR (I already have MK41's and these are my main caps. The MK21's or MK4V's would be strictly for FOB situations within the first 10-15 rows)

obviously there are plenty of recordings out there with either of these caps, but I have not been able to find a direct comparison of these 2. Does anyone know of such comparison??

Thanks!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

They really are completely different capsules...  The mk21, as a subcard, has a very natural sound compared to a card.  It also has significantly more bass extension than the mk4 variants.  Compared to an omni, the reward rejection is very helpful.

They are both outstanding... I originally went with mk21 + mk41, thinking I could get by without the mk4. And then I had to have mk4's.  And sold my mk41's... I just don't run hypers often and also have mg200's and 210's.  I tend to run close, where I just don't use hypers.  Though I have run both of those outstanding hypers stage lip with great results.

I do not feel that mk21's are all that suitable for headworn situations.  I don't believe that config can provide the capsule separation distance sufficient for great imaging.  They're very good in that app, I just much prefer the mk4 or mkv4.

Given a choice, I'd take mk4v's over mk4's for the slight high freq bump.  And they can fit better in low profile applications.

Stage lip and on stage, the mk21's are really incredible.  10 to 15 rows back... indoors I'd usually run mk4's.  Outdoors, mk21's...   No card or hyper will compare to the mk21 outdoors stage lip or on stage.  Not even close.

Tough call!

[taperj]

No card or hyper will compare to the mk21 outdoors stage lip or on stage.  Not even close.

Disagree.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

No card or hyper will compare to the mk21 outdoors stage lip or on stage.  Not even close.

Disagree.

Make your case or it's just hype

[taperj]

No card or hyper will compare to the mk21 outdoors stage lip or on stage.  Not even close.

Disagree.

Make your case or it's just hype

Yeah, you know, actually I just remembered that the mk21 is a wide card, not a card. I thought the claim was card vs. card or hyper. I would guess just based on pattern that your claim may be pertinent to any wide card configured microphone vs any other card/hyper, not just the mk21, basing it purely on pickup pattern for this application. So I'll go back on my disagree and update to a *shrug* dunno. Sorry for making waves in the pool as I passed by

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Yeah, you know, actually I just remembered that the mk21 is a wide card, not a card. I thought the claim was card vs. card or hyper. I would guess just based on pattern that your claim may be pertinent to any wide card configured microphone vs any other card/hyper, not just the mk21, basing it purely on pickup pattern for this application. So I'll go back on my disagree and update to a *shrug* dunno. Sorry for making waves in the pool as I passed by

No worries - it is ultimately all opinion unless we are posting samples... and even then, what we prefer is still subjective and very much situation/material/playback dependent.

I've love to own fewer mics and dump my mk21's.... but properly used in their element, they're amazing.

[braweave]

It is amazing that you mentioned all of the situations below as I do not stealth and almost always tape outdoors. (when I do tape indoors it will probably be from the OTS which I would need hypers for)  I was leaning towards the MK21 and all of what you said below just confirms what I was thinking, that for my personal applications the 21's would be my best bet.

They really are completely different capsules...  The mk21, as a subcard, has a very natural sound compared to a card.  It also has significantly more bass extension than the mk4 variants.  Compared to an omni, the reward rejection is very helpful.

They are both outstanding... I originally went with mk21 + mk41, thinking I could get by without the mk4. And then I had to have mk4's.  And sold my mk41's... I just don't run hypers often and also have mg200's and 210's.  I tend to run close, where I just don't use hypers.  Though I have run both of those outstanding hypers stage lip with great results.

I do not feel that mk21's are all that suitable for headworn situations.  I don't believe that config can provide the capsule separation distance sufficient for great imaging.  They're very good in that app, I just much prefer the mk4 or mkv4.

Given a choice, I'd take mk4v's over mk4's for the slight high freq bump.  And they can fit better in low profile applications.

Stage lip and on stage, the mk21's are really incredible.  10 to 15 rows back... indoors I'd usually run mk4's.  Outdoors, mk21's...   No card or hyper will compare to the mk21 outdoors stage lip or on stage.  Not even close.

Tough call!

[deadheaded]

(I already have MK41's and these are my main caps. The MK21's or MK4V's would be strictly for FOB situations within the first 10-15 rows)

try running your 41's within the first 15 rows, i think you will be very happy.

[StuStu]

(I already have MK41's and these are my main caps. The MK21's or MK4V's would be strictly for FOB situations within the first 10-15 rows)

try running your 41's within the first 15 rows, i think you will be very happy.

Some of my favorite recordings have been with 41's fob. These caps sometimes defy taper logic.    

[stevetoney]

FWIW, I personally found the MK4V nice sounding, but the HF bump can be a little fatiguing to my ears at times, so when I traded those in for the MK5's, that solved the issue.  The MK5's also have a HF emphasis, just not as pronounced as the MK4V.  I think the MK21 is one of the nicest sounding Schoeps capsules in the right situation.  I know that if it was my choice, I'd probably lean towards the sound of the 21's, but if you don't have a cardioid in your collection, you might want to go for the MK4V since it's more universally applicable to the most taping situations.

[gmm6797]

Ill put out my dumb question of the day.... being that I use my Schoeps in the hat more than on the stand... and in a lot of situations (GA, clubs or even theaters) I wont know where I am going to be standing until the mics are wired and I am walking around the venue... which of the Schoeps caps are the best walking into a venue "blind"

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I wont know where I am going to be standing until the mics are wired and I am walking around the venue... which of the Schoeps caps are the best walking into a venue "blind"

The mk41 would be the most forgiving in cases where you are back "too far".  Ideally, with the walk-about factor, you'd get close enough to make a better recording with the mk4's.  If you do some searches for Josephine's posts, she has made many excellent recordings with mk41's... And then tried mk4's... here it is, with bonus Ed opinion:

I have the 4's and 41's and wouldn't give up either pair. In certain venues the 41's shine,
outside as others have mentioned the 4's will be better and if you get up close in a great
sounding room or hall the 4's will be better.

Everything depends on what you tape, where you tape and what position you tape from.
If you get bad seats all the time, go for the 41's.

I agree with Ed.   Each cap has its purpose. 

I started out with the 41's, love(d) them, and eventually picked up a pair of 4's.  I'd say now that my 4's are in use 85/90% of the time.  I'm usually in pretty good seats and mostly stay away from arena-type shows.  But it's great to have the 41's in reserve for those less-than-ideal rooms or the rare stadium/arena show.  The 41's also come out if I'm running open and forced to run from the back in a deep, deep room.

Picked up some MK4v's a while back thinking they'd eventually replace my MK4's . . . only to discover that, depending upon the style of hat I wear, I need both.   

[stevetoney]

Ill put out my dumb question of the day.... being that I use my Schoeps in the hat more than on the stand... and in a lot of situations (GA, clubs or even theaters) I wont know where I am going to be standing until the mics are wired and I am walking around the venue... which of the Schoeps caps are the best walking into a venue "blind"

My opinion is omni's and just make sure you get reasonably close.  Your head basically acts as a baffle and you end up with a decent stereo separation without having the imaging of the recording shift around with every tiny movement of your head. 

With hat mounting, I always figured on forgetting about the best stereo recording anyway...be anal about that when you are in situations where you have better control, but I never figured that to be the case with mics in hate.  Hat mounting also means increased crowd chatter to me, so the best thing to do is get up close to the stage, increase volume to drown out Dumb Dora.  For increased forgiveness and max flexibility to not have every move you make during the night, that means omni. 

While I understand and agree with your comment Freelunch about hypers in the back, my thoughts are those are the least forgiving mic patterns and you'd hear the image shifting on the recording whenever the taper moves his head to the left or right, which is bound to happen quite a bit over the course of two or three hours.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

My opinion is omni's and just make sure you get reasonably close.  Your head basically acts as a baffle and you end up with a decent stereo separation without having the imaging of the recording shift around with every tiny movement of your head. 

I can't recall whether you do much low profile recording?  I ask because I've done hypers, I've done cards... A lot..  Sometimes at 50 or more dB of pre-amp gain.  And my recordings don't have issues with "the imaging of the recording shift around with every tiny movement of your head."     And especially the "which is bound to happen quite a bit over the course of two or three hours" - I think that statement is totally ridiculous.   There are countless examples of mk41 recordings which do not have those issues.. Listen to some of Josephine's shows.

[edtyre]

My opinion is omni's and just make sure you get reasonably close.  Your head basically acts as a baffle and you end up with a decent stereo separation without having the imaging of the recording shift around with every tiny movement of your head. 

I can't recall whether you do much low profile recording?  I ask because I've done hypers, I've done cards... A lot..  Sometimes at 50 or more dB of pre-amp gain.  And my recordings don't have issues with "the imaging of the recording shift around with every tiny movement of your head."     And especially the "which is bound to happen quite a bit over the course of two or three hours" - I think that statement is totally ridiculous.   There are countless examples of mk41 recordings which do not have those issues.. Listen to some of Josephine's shows.

Listen to some of my shows too. I have done hundreds of hat recordings with both mk-4's and especially mk-41's with none of these "issues" It's funny you suggest omni's for stealth because i have
mk-2s and have never used them once for stealth.