Topic: Stereo, figure of 8, for onstage amplified 'rock' band recording

[BusDriver]

Any thoughts or comments ...?

I haven't been able to find any recording samples of this in the usual places. has anyone utilized the one piece stereo units (lsd2, busman, avantone)  onstage set at a 90+ degree angle in figure 8? My thought would be placement to capture instrument amps and stage monitors in order to capture a better vocal level - placed stage front just enough to pick up floor monitors without being an obstruction to performer. Elements positioned in such a was as to have maximum isolation of the traditionally placed center drum kit - which should still have plenty of strength to be picked up by both channels.

FYI - I've returned to this recording arena only a few months ago after being gone 15+ years, and am getting bit by the gear bug after stepping in slowly. Considering a purchase of of one of these bricks.

Looking forward to comments.

[H₂O]

Running in that configuration is called Blumlien. Coincident Fig 8 at 90 deg

[Kush]

I've done this for a local band numerous times using the SP-LSD2 onstage Blumlien. I've even placed it between two floor monitors centered in front of the drums. The bottom line is your not going to get enough vocals in your recording. I've ruined a bunch of recordings this way. The stereo image of the instruments is incredible though.

To compensate for the low vocals, I usually take a sbd patch as well as the SP-LSD2 onstage and mix the 4 channels on-the-fly down to stereo using a UA-5.

[SmokinJoe]

One other thing about blumlein is that it works best if all the sound is coming in the front quadrant.  In other words the pattern is an "X" with big lobes front and rear, and the sound should be from dead ahead to 45 degrees left or right, where the main sound information is picked up with the front lobes, not the rear lobes.

If you were on-stage, and there was a guitar amp coming from the 90 degrees to the left, it would be picked up in the left channel's front lobe, and also the the right channel's back lobe.  This means you will hear the guitar in the right channel too, but out of phase.

That said, people have been known to violate that rule and like what they get.  I like to be able to put my headphones on and hear the instruments spatially like I would if I was sitting on the floor stage lip.  When it's not right it bugs the hell out of me, but I know that not everyone feels that way.

[BusDriver]

Many thanks for the input. I should do my homework next time, and refresh myself of recording patterns.

My real question has more to do with how effective the rear lobe pickup is of the stage monitors (vocals ) when the mics are  placed just inside their projection - close proximity to floor monitors, more distant from instrument amps at about 3 foot high. The sound from dead ahead (drums) is thought to be more isolated .. in the dead zone , between  R/L lobes. Am I really missing the boat?? I know trial and error ..... just fishing for feedback ... Remember, this is using two 8's, crossed, not an M/S.

JL

[SmokinJoe]

The rear lobes are just as sensitive as the front lobes, so they should pick up the monitors just fine.  Except 180 degrees out of phase.

In theory, you have to be concerned with cancellation.  Here is a hypothetical example.  You have a singer on stage, and the singer is yelling into an SM58, so the sound goes to the SBD and back through the monitor.  To keep things simple let's say there is no delay between the SM58 and the output from the monitor.  If you put a Figure 8 mic mid way between the singer and the monitor, and the singer's original voice and the monitor are equal volume, there are equal and opposite sound forces hitting both sides of the figure 8 diaphragm at the same time, and the resultant output from that mic to the recorder is zero.  Realistically, the above isn't going to happen, the timing and equal volume just aren't likely to align like a solar eclipse, but if it doesn't work great the first time, moving the mic around the stage a little bit might make a big difference.

[ArchivalAudio]

Blumlien
especially with the LSD-2
is awesome!
but you need to be out front in the FOH in the "sweet-spot" or slightly in-front of it, get the stage sound and the PA
and it gives the sweetest stage  audience blend - a very natural feel between songs
try it out front 10 to 15' from stage maybe 20' depending on how big the venue is and how far the main PA speakers are spaced
remember you want to be far in front of the equilateral triangle...

-- Ian

[DSatz]

For microphones of the LSD2's general type (multi-pattern coincident stereo mikes with dual-diaphragm capsules), the figure-8 setting will have the most consistent directional pattern--it will be a figure-8 at low, middle and high frequencies unlike the cardioid in microphones of that type, which broaden out at low frequencies and get narrow at high frequencies. That's very good when you're recording at some distance from the direct sound sources and picking up a mix of direct and reflected (reverberant) sound. It means that the frequency response of the microphone--the main thing that determines its sound quality--will be very nearly the same no matter at what angle the sound is arriving at the microphone.

The one fundamental problem with the crossed-figure-8 setup comes from the fact that the two lobes of each channel are in opposite polarity to one another. If any direct sound source is 45 degrees or farther off-center (imagine a straight line running from the microphone position to the center of the stage), it will be picked up by both microphones at the same time but in opposite signal polarity. Some amount of that can be OK, but too much just sounds phasey and unreal. And the problem is, because the front and rear lobes have equal sensitivity, you already have a microphone that you can't afford to pull too far back away from the direct sound sources, or everything will be too "roomy" and not clear enough. So the first problem tends to force you to use somewhat distant placement (to keep the direct sound sources within the front quadrant) while the second problem punishes you for placing the mikes too far back.

As a result this method tends to have problems in many acoustical situations, and can't be used all the time to good effect. But when it works well, it often works wonderfully well.

--best regards

[rastasean]

As a result this method tends to have problems in many acoustical situations, and can't be used all the time to good effect. But when it works well, it often works wonderfully well.

--best regards

Yeah, I don't doubt it can be tricky to figure it out and get it to sound good but when you CAN, it will have good stereo sounds.

As for a microphone with figure 8, who recommends what?
anyone know anything about the akg perception 420? what about the studio projects b3, cousin of the famous lsd2 microphone.