Topic: Marantz PMD620 vs Tascam DR-100 vs Sony PCM-m10 vs Zoom H4n: quietest pre-amps?

[Samtastic]

Hey guys,
I'm looking at the following portable field recorders:

Marantz PMD620, Tascam DR-100, Sony PCM-m10, Zoom H4n

Each of these I'm able to find in my price-range (AUD$350-400). 

My question is, which of these has the quietest pre-amps (compared to the H4n)?

I've used the Zoom h4n extensively (by borrowing one from uni). I like the fact that it has XLR inputs, but found it a little noisy. I also think the two in-built mics would be easy to damage, as they have no shielding. 

So I think it's pretty unlikey that I'll be getting an H4n. But I'm really not sure which of the other three is the one to go for. I like that the DR100 has XLR ins (I've been using a Rode NT1A as well as the built-in mics in my previous H4n recordings). And the dismal battery life isn't such an issue, as I'm generally recording for short, specific periods. 

But does anyone have any insight into which of the above has the best preamps? 

Regards,
Sam

[Samtastic]

Also, I should mention that I've been doing open-air, ambient field recordings, and recording natural percussive sounds (both for use in electronic music production). I want mics/preamps sensitive enough to capture the true sense of a space, or to properly capture the specific tone of a sound.

If I were to go for a unit without XLR-ins and on-board phantom power, I would probably want to add a Littlebox preamp to the kit, further down the path, which would add a further AUD$200 or so to the price (by which point I'd be within the price range of the Marantz PMD661 - which looks to be an amazing recorder.

Can anyone say how the PMD661's preamps compare to the above units? The PMD 661 is meant to have a 65dB S/N ratio. Are there S/N ratio stats available for the other units?

[Samtastic]

Ok so I've been going through wingfieldaudio's reviews of all the above, and im kind of thinking either the Sony PCM-M10 (w a Littlebox pre/phantom further down the track) or saving up for longer (and so continuing to borrow uni's H4n in the meantime) for the Marantz PMD661.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[page]

wingfield's is a decent site for what your looking for. There is one other that the nature recording folks use that has specs on noise, dynamic range, etc but I can't remember the address at the moment. Anyway, the short of it is, unless the units are modified after the factory, in the back of my mind I think you're initial conclusion is accurate (to chose the M10).

[notlance]

Here's a post that has the link that I believe page is trying to remember:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143893.msg1855437#msg1855437

[flintstone]

Three of the four models are tested here
http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

Equivalent Input Noise, mic input
PCM-M10 ....-122 dBu A-weighted
DR-100 .... -113 dBu
PMD620 .... -112 dBu

These tests were conducted at maximum gain.  Your results may vary under different test conditions.  So far as I know, nobody has a more complete set of test results for hand-held recorders than Avisoft does.

I took a look at the Zoom H4n and found its XLR input to be quite noisy, particularly when providing phantom power.  The 3.5mm input jack (it's on the back, above the speaker) was quieter.  But it's not in the same class as the PCM-M10.

[page]

Here's a post that has the link that I believe page is trying to remember:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143893.msg1855437#msg1855437

Three of the four models are tested here
http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

Yep, that's it. I actually thought of flintstone when I posted that, but got sidetracked and didn't PM him.

+T guys. 

[Samtastic]

Cheers

Going between the avisoft test results & wingfield's reviews, the sony PCM m10 sounds like it could be a winner. Again I would love the XLR inputs of the Marantz PMD661, but at around AUD$600 it's out of my range (ive got some other audio purchases to save for in the near future also).

For a cheaper alternative, the Olympus LS-11 also sounds promising. It sits at around AUD$260, about $100 less than the Sony PCM-m10. According to avisoft's results, at its most sensitive setting, the Olympus has similar self-noise levels to the Sony. Will keep looking

[jbell]

You can get an M10 for $209-220!!  I would stick with the m10 if you are going with a handheld.  It has a great track record. 

Cheers

Going between the avisoft test results & wingfield's reviews, the sony PCM m10 sounds like it could be a winner. Again I would love the XLR inputs of the Marantz PMD661, but at around AUD$600 it's out of my range (ive got some other audio purchases to save for in the near future also).

For a cheaper alternative, the Olympus LS-11 also sounds promising. It sits at around AUD$260, about $100 less than the Sony PCM-m10. According to avisoft's results, at its most sensitive setting, the Olympus has similar self-noise levels to the Sony. Will keep looking

[Samtastic]

Really? Where are M10s $220?

I'm in Australia. Electronics generally cost a lot more here than elsewhere. Best I've seen is an M10 for around $330 ($290 + postage).

You can get an M10 for $209-220!!  I would stick with the m10 if you are going with a handheld.  It has a great track record. 

Cheers

Going between the avisoft test results & wingfield's reviews, the sony PCM m10 sounds like it could be a winner. Again I would love the XLR inputs of the Marantz PMD661, but at around AUD$600 it's out of my range (ive got some other audio purchases to save for in the near future also).

For a cheaper alternative, the Olympus LS-11 also sounds promising. It sits at around AUD$260, about $100 less than the Sony PCM-m10. According to avisoft's results, at its most sensitive setting, the Olympus has similar self-noise levels to the Sony. Will keep looking

[jbell]

Here is one on ebay!!  $180 BIN, offer to pay the shipping and you should be below $220.  You could also have someone state side send you one. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-PCM-M10-Handheld-Digital-Voice-Recorder-/320678185279?pt=Voice_Recorders&hash=item4aa9e8c93f

Really? Where are M10s $220?

I'm in Australia. Electronics generally cost a lot more here than elsewhere. Best I've seen is an M10 for around $330 ($290 + postage).

You can get an M10 for $209-220!!  I would stick with the m10 if you are going with a handheld.  It has a great track record. 

Cheers

Going between the avisoft test results & wingfield's reviews, the sony PCM m10 sounds like it could be a winner. Again I would love the XLR inputs of the Marantz PMD661, but at around AUD$600 it's out of my range (ive got some other audio purchases to save for in the near future also).

For a cheaper alternative, the Olympus LS-11 also sounds promising. It sits at around AUD$260, about $100 less than the Sony PCM-m10. According to avisoft's results, at its most sensitive setting, the Olympus has similar self-noise levels to the Sony. Will keep looking

[rastasean]

A lot of nature recordists like the fostex fr-2LE because of the quiet pre-amps and as you can see here, the people who conducted tests said it was just under a SD 722.
http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

[F.O.Bean]

Here is one on ebay!!  $180 BIN, offer to pay the shipping and you should be below $220.  You could also have someone state side send you one. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-PCM-M10-Handheld-Digital-Voice-Recorder-/320678185279?pt=Voice_Recorders&hash=item4aa9e8c93f

Really? Where are M10s $220?

I'm in Australia. Electronics generally cost a lot more here than elsewhere. Best I've seen is an M10 for around $330 ($290 + postage).

You can get an M10 for $209-220!!  I would stick with the m10 if you are going with a handheld.  It has a great track record. 

Cheers

Going between the avisoft test results & wingfield's reviews, the sony PCM m10 sounds like it could be a winner. Again I would love the XLR inputs of the Marantz PMD661, but at around AUD$600 it's out of my range (ive got some other audio purchases to save for in the near future also).

For a cheaper alternative, the Olympus LS-11 also sounds promising. It sits at around AUD$260, about $100 less than the Sony PCM-m10. According to avisoft's results, at its most sensitive setting, the Olympus has similar self-noise levels to the Sony. Will keep looking

I vote this route as well. After being spoiled w/ a SD 722, I LOVE how efficient the Sony PCM-M10 is already. And I just ran battery runtimes and my Sony M10 ran for 30hrs[recording 24/44, w/ the backlight ON, and w/ 2300mah Energizer AA's]

[DSatz]

The "quietness" of a preamp depends to a considerable extent on the gain setting that is chosen. If you need to boost the mike signals by (say) 30 dB then you could measure and rank ten given preamps by their noise figures at that gain setting; if on the other hand you need 50 or 60 dB gain then the ranking might be entirely different.

In other words, if someone tests a bunch of preamps while they're set for a gain that's markedly different from the gain that you require, their evaluations might well be misleading and useless for your purposes, even if they're technically correct down to the last decimal place.

You need to know the gain that you will require from a preamp, and the preamps have to be tested at or near that particular gain level. Only then can any comparisons of noise levels start to become meaningful.

--best regards

[mhlsr]

I recorded these 2 shows with my DR-100, I had excellent results. works for me.
http://www.archive.org/details/furthur2010-06-26.at897.laurentus.108501.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/Furthur2010-07-30