Rode NT4 on MicroTrack II = awful, way too much noise! Help! :-(

[emilision]

Hi,

I'm looking for some help:

I just bought a NT4 to use for field recording with my MicroTrackII and it's worse than the bundled mic. I'm so dissaponted, after spending €400 and buying a Rycote windjammer and all. It's unusable there's so much noise/hiss.

I'm using it into the 1/8" jack (using the bundled Rode cable) with the NT4 running off its internal battery. I could go buy cables to connect the XLR to the 1/4" TRS, though I wonder if it'll make much difference...or be even worse!

It seems to me that the Rode isn't a very sensitive Mic, I feel slightly dupped.

Is there anything else I can do? That won't cost me 100s of euro...

(I'm thinking I'll have to save up and get a Fostex FR-2LE, or, another idea, build a battery pack for my FirefaceUC and lug that around as a MicPre to SPDIF and connect that to the MicroTrack...but it's a lot of hassle, especially dewiring/rewiring my UC (I use nearly every input in my studio) everytime I want to go pick up some sounds...though it'd be great quality...but I also worry all that regular plugging things in/out will eventually damage the UCs connections...)


Thanks so much for any advice!

Emi.

[dream]

First I would get another 5 pol XLR to 1/8" jack cable. The one coming with the NT4 has the output lowered. There are some electronics in the XLR jack.
I use the one, which came with my old Sony 957 - works fine. You would get a hotter output and thus reduced noise. The NT4 is a fine stereo microphone

[emilision]

The one coming with the NT4 has the output lowered. There are some electronics in the XLR jack.

Are you sure about that? Have you actually checked the levels between them?

Kind of hard to find these cables; I could try one of these: http://www.thomann.de/ie/beyerdynamic_mvk_82_k3.htm ...not sure if it may have the same thing...

Thanks.

[dream]

The one coming with the NT4 has the output lowered. There are some electronics in the XLR jack.

Are you sure about that? Have you actually checked the levels between them?

Kind of hard to find these cables; I could try one of these: http://www.thomann.de/ie/beyerdynamic_mvk_82_k3.htm ...not sure if it may have the same thing...

Thanks.

I'm 100% sure. Just check the XLR jack by yourself, open it up and you will see.
Furthermore here is a quote from Rode support mail to me concerning this issue:
"There is a -10db pad resister on the NT4 mini jack cable.
The reason for this is that the signal is usually too "hot" when plugged into a mini recorder.
There is no danger in using a different cable without the pad."
Search Taperssection and you will find further comments about this.

[F.O.Bean]

Would that cause all the static/etc that he's hearing tho?

[acidjack]

I thought the MTII was known to have terrible/noisy inputs, and that was probably the problem. 

Conventional TS wisdom would be that using a preamp into the MTII would probably help with that issue, but of course, even a cheap pre will be 150 euros or more.

Maybe some former MTII users can chime in here.  Dumping the MTII in favor of a different recorder would be cheaper than buying an outboard pre, I suppose.

[emilision]

Yeah, I think the MicroTrack is just a piece of crap...I've been reading around, look at the terrible results it gets here: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
...I don't think even an extra 10DB will be enough to rise above the noise floor for the kind of ambient sounds I'm going for...

I wouldn't mind spending another 150 on a preamp, but it would need to be stereo; and portable, or at least have a 12v or so DC. What would you recommend? The Naiant looks quite good. Though I wonder if the TRS line ins are even any good...it might be a losing battle.

I always thought it was just the bundled Mic wasn't great...

I wonder what shoud I replace it with, maybe a SONY PCM-M10, would be a cheap option...

...or maybe I should just use my crazy FireFace idea...the Pres on it are probably as good, if not better, than SoundDevices? Or not?

...or maybe I could go for a Apogee Duet 2 and use my MacBook Pro closed as a recorder (using InsomniaX) in a bag...

(Sorry to be throwing so many ideas out; thanks for any help!)

[F.O.Bean]

Sony PCM-M10

[acidjack]

I could be more help to you if I knew more about the MTII so I hope some MTII folks who run pres into them will chime in.  I know if you just use it as a "bit bucket" (digital input) then you'd be fine, but anything involving its analog electronics could be an issue.  People here love the M10 and say the preamps are quiet, but if you're talking about ambient sounds, I'm not entirely sure the M10 is quiet enough for that (again, anyone knowledgable, please chime in on this).

The Naiant is a nice preamp; well built, small, and inexpensive.  Close to the price of a new M10.  But, it's still analog, so that doesn't eliminate the MTII from the picture.

If you have a way of borrowing an M10 or getting one from a store that has a good return policy, that's probably the easiest way to go, since it doesn't add another box for you to carry around.

Yeah, I think the MicroTrack is just a piece of crap...I've been reading around, look at the terrible results it gets here: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
...I don't think even an extra 10DB will be enough to rise above the noise floor for the kind of ambient sounds I'm going for...

I wouldn't mind spending another 150 on a preamp, but it would need to be stereo; and portable, or at least have a 12v or so DC. What would you recommend? The Naiant looks quite good. Though I wonder if the TRS line ins are even any good...it might be a losing battle.

I always thought it was just the bundled Mic wasn't great...

I wonder what shoud I replace it with, maybe a SONY PCM-M10, would be a cheap option...

...or maybe I should just use my crazy FireFace idea...the Pres on it are probably as good, if not better, than SoundDevices? Or not?

...or maybe I could go for a Apogee Duet 2 and use my MacBook Pro closed as a recorder (using InsomniaX) in a bag...

(Sorry to be throwing so many ideas out; thanks for any help!)

[dlh]

Yeah, I think the MicroTrack is just a piece of crap...I've been reading around, look at the terrible results it gets here: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
...I don't think even an extra 10DB will be enough to rise above the noise floor for the kind of ambient sounds I'm going for...

I wouldn't mind spending another 150 on a preamp, but it would need to be stereo; and portable, or at least have a 12v or so DC. What would you recommend? The Naiant looks quite good. Though I wonder if the TRS line ins are even any good...it might be a losing battle.

I always thought it was just the bundled Mic wasn't great...

I wonder what shoud I replace it with, maybe a SONY PCM-M10, would be a cheap option...

...or maybe I should just use my crazy FireFace idea...the Pres on it are probably as good, if not better, than SoundDevices? Or not?

...or maybe I could go for a Apogee Duet 2 and use my MacBook Pro closed as a recorder (using InsomniaX) in a bag...

(Sorry to be throwing so many ideas out; thanks for any help!)

Unfortunately, after travelling down the MTII road, I have to agree on "piece of crap".  I started with an MTII and AT BP4025 (which is a pretty quiet mic) and the results for ambient sounds were unusable.  Paired the AT with an fr2LE and the results were very good.  That's my ambient setup right now.

Using your FF and SPDIF out to the MTII should give you good results and relieve some concerns about the NT (I've not used one).
Last word:
My MTII is used as a backup bit bucket.  I use an apogee MiniMe SPDIF out to another recorder, with AES (transformered) to the MTII.
I was lucky and got my fr2LE on ebay for $275 (mint).  I think it's a great ambient recorder with lots of runtime with an rc battery.
But I'd try the FF first to see if the noise is coming from the mic.  I've read other stuff about foley guys collecting ambient sounds using the NT4 and the 4025.
Self noise on the NT4 about <16, on the 4025 about 14, so I doubt that most of the noise you hear is the mic.
I've not used other small recorders like the M10, but I think the fr2LE makes a nice ambient recorder, a lttle larger than other minis, but an rc battery fits inside so no worries about external batteries.  I use it at clubs too, either line in SBD or from mics and have had good results.  You do have to reformat the card to change sample rate, but that's not a big deal to me.  I reformat for every use anyway.

Hope this helps,
Dave

[SmokinJoe]

The NT4 is a good mic.  One of my buddies used one a lot, and kept it for outside festivals.

You can find XLR to TRS adapters or cables cheap ($20?).  I would try that, and see if the difference is acceptable to you.  I would also try running the mics off phantom power instead of the 9V battery.  It might not help, but it's free to try.  I think the MT puts out less than 48V (30?) but that should be plenty to power the NT4.  If it's not better, then think about a new pre or recorder.  You can get a nice mod'ed UA5 cheap nowadays.

[emilision]

Hi guys,

Great replies, thanks!

Yeah the NT4 isn't a bad mike; it's just not the hottest signal level, so it does expose the preamps a bit if using it for ambient sounds...

And yeah the MicroTracks pre's just aren't capable of ambient recording with their S/N ratio...full stop.

I was looking around for one of those MiniMes actually, they were too expensive though...I reckoned the MicroTrack's analogue ins couldn't be trusted at line level either...I'm just going to sell it ASAP.

I actually went and got a PCM D-50...I found one at a really good price, and I liked a lot of the features. Though after reading about the M10 and its marker feature, I had assumed the D-50 would have it too, but it doesn't!!! I'm so disappointed, I use markers in Logic big time, it would've been so handy. But otherwise it's looking like a great recorder.

But anyway, the NT4 is sounding much better through the D-50...I'm still waiting on the new XLR to 3.5mm cable, so hopefully that'll give me the extra 10DB less noise that Dream was talking about.

It's still not as quiet as the FireFace, and the image doesn't feel quite as three-dimensional—so I may still get one of those LittleBoxes...do you think they'll bring me that bit closer? Though will the D-50's line-in really be good enough to pick up the extra sonic detail?

[NOLAfishwater]

the MTII always worked well as a bit bucket for me. Due the Rode NT4 being a bit bright, the MiniMe would be a good match for preamps. You might also want to look at the the USBPre 2 as it has digital out

[emilision]

I can confirm the Rode NT4 cable does indeed have a pad (I can't believe they don't mention it in any of the specs/manuals)...I just tried it today with a new cable (the Beyerdynamic one I mentioned), definitely around 8–12DB louder...Thanks Dream!!!

[F.O.Bean]

Sweet, glad it worked out for you