Topic: What to do with 2 DPA 4011s and an AKG 414?

[bergerdml]

Hi all,

I used to tape a lot, but haven't done much in recent years.  I've just gotten my hands on a bunch of new equipment and am eager to play.

Specifically, I just got a pair of DPA 4011s and a friend of mine has an AKG 414.  I also have lying around a pair of AKG C1000s and an AT 822.  I have Tascam DR-680, so I have the ability to record from 6 mikes simultaneously and pick and choose what I like (or what combination I like) better later.

What sort of a configuration do you suggest that I try out with this gear?  My idea was to run the 4011s in an ORTF configuration and then place the 414 in omni mode on the same tree.  Is this a good idea? 

Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

David

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Hi all,

I used to tape a lot, but haven't done much in recent years.  I've just gotten my hands on a bunch of new equipment and am eager to play.

Specifically, I just got a pair of DPA 4011s and a friend of mine has an AKG 414.  I also have lying around a pair of AKG C1000s and an AT 822.  I have Tascam DR-680, so I have the ability to record from 6 mikes simultaneously and pick and choose what I like (or what combination I like) better later.

What sort of a configuration do you suggest that I try out with this gear?  My idea was to run the 4011s in an ORTF configuration and then place the 414 in omni mode on the same tree.  Is this a good idea? 

A few ideas:

1) Pick 3 or 4 different events, an outdoor, an indoor, an upclose one, etc. Throw everything up on the tree in the same configs for a couple of sets and listen later to see their differences in the same environment. Use this as a learning experience to figure out if you were only going to run 1 pair, what it would be and when, etc.
2) Run the DPAs on the sides, ORTF, maybe space them a bit more, and run the AKG as the foward center in the tree (I'd space it forward enough to retain as much phase compatability toward the stacks with the DPAs as possible, ymmv). Indoors; Run it as a center Cardioid, outdoors, as a center Omni.
3) Use the 414 in figure 8 mode and one of the DPAs as a M/S pair and decode it in post later.

[acidjack]

^^ all good ideas.

You could also try running a hypers + cards combo with the AKGs as the hypers; indoors, this can sometimes provide some more clarity on the vocals and some more "sparkle" to the highly accurate DPAs.

Johnny Fried Chicken Boy on here does this all the time and his recordings are IMHO pretty great.  See
here:  www.nyctaper.com/?p=3947
and
here: www.nyctaper.com/?p=5494

I can't say I'd recommend that combo outdoors.  Outdoors, I might try running the AKGs omni and the DPAs cardiod in a tight pattern, though I have never tried that. 

Johnny and I have also had success running the AKGs onstage as wide cards and the DPAs up top, either on the stack or back in the center of the room.  For example:
http://www.archive.org/details/soulive2011-03-12.bbowl_acidjack (AKGs wide card onstage with 4021s on the stack)

Honestly not sure what I'd do with the other mics other than maybe use them for spot miking or something. 

[page]

^^ all good ideas.

You could also try running a hypers + cards combo with the AKGs as the hypers; indoors, this can sometimes provide some more clarity on the vocals and some more "sparkle" to the highly accurate DPAs.

I got the impression that he only has a single 414.

[hi and lo]

Johnny and I have also had success running the AKGs onstage as wide cards and the DPAs up top, either on the stack or back in the center of the room.  For example:
http://www.archive.org/details/soulive2011-03-12.bbowl_acidjack (AKGs wide card onstage with 4021s on the stack)

DO THIS! 

[acidjack]

^^ all good ideas.

You could also try running a hypers + cards combo with the AKGs as the hypers; indoors, this can sometimes provide some more clarity on the vocals and some more "sparkle" to the highly accurate DPAs.

I got the impression that he only has a single 414.

   This is what happens when one doesn't read carefully. 

In that case, I think your idea makes a lot more sense.  I suppose you could still try either running a single omni onstage or running a single hyper in the middle still..... I'd probably experiment with some fig8 configs if I had a single 414 available to me. For that matter, I need to try it with mine.

[bergerdml]

Wow!  What a great discussion!  Thanks guys.

It is true that I only have one 414 to use.  While a lesser mike, I do have 2 AKG C1000s that I could use.  Would it make sense to put the C1000s on stage in an XY or wider position?  Or just the 414 as an Omni?  (Or both?)

Some more basic questions:

1) While I understand somewhat about phase, how does seperating the 414 from the mike stand (with 4011s in ORTF configuration) help with the phase issues?  And how far does it need to be?
2) What is the philosophy of putting mikes on the stage?  That would capture the monitor mix, wouldn't it?  Why isn't that a bad idea?

Thanks for all of your help,
David

[page]

1) While I understand somewhat about phase, how does seperating the 414 from the mike stand (with 4011s in ORTF configuration) help with the phase issues?  And how far does it need to be?

A picture will illustrate this better then I could ever explain it. If nobody beats me, I'll try and snap one tonight or tomorrow.

[bergerdml]

1) While I understand somewhat about phase, how does seperating the 414 from the mike stand (with 4011s in ORTF configuration) help with the phase issues?  And how far does it need to be?

A picture will illustrate this better then I could ever explain it. If nobody beats me, I'll try and snap one tonight or tomorrow.

Please!  That would be greatly appreciated.

[page]

1) While I understand somewhat about phase, how does seperating the 414 from the mike stand (with 4011s in ORTF configuration) help with the phase issues?  And how far does it need to be?

A picture will illustrate this better then I could ever explain it. If nobody beats me, I'll try and snap one tonight or tomorrow.

Please!  That would be greatly appreciated.

You see (on each side) three lines originating from the PA to the array, and a fourth line between the center caps and their respective sides. One (on each side) is going to the outer cap, one goes to the center cap, and the third is going to the middle between them.

The distance/length of the PA/cap lines should be the same (measured from the diaphragm), while the angle of that intersection from the center PA line to the 4th cap/cap line should be 90 degrees. That means that the sound will hit the center cap at the same time it hits the side cap for the side the PA is on. So, if properly setup, your PA should have minimal phase cancelation, while the further off access you get, the more smear you'll get.

The further back from the sound source, the less out front your center mic cap will be. It would be easy enough to construct some tools to simplify this in the field; A straight rod of 1' in length with another stick of say 6" at a 90* angle welded/glued/etc in the center. Then line up the caps on the long side and make sure the center points directly at the PA.

Any questions?

[bergerdml]

1) While I understand somewhat about phase, how does seperating the 414 from the mike stand (with 4011s in ORTF configuration) help with the phase issues?  And how far does it need to be?

A picture will illustrate this better then I could ever explain it. If nobody beats me, I'll try and snap one tonight or tomorrow.

Please!  That would be greatly appreciated.

You see (on each side) three lines originating from the PA to the array, and a fourth line between the center caps and their respective sides. One (on each side) is going to the outer cap, one goes to the center cap, and the third is going to the middle between them.

The distance/length of the PA/cap lines should be the same (measured from the diaphragm), while the angle of that intersection from the center PA line to the 4th cap/cap line should be 90 degrees. That means that the sound will hit the center cap at the same time it hits the side cap for the side the PA is on. So, if properly setup, your PA should have minimal phase cancelation, while the further off access you get, the more smear you'll get.

The further back from the sound source, the less out front your center mic cap will be. It would be easy enough to construct some tools to simplify this in the field; A straight rod of 1' in length with another stick of say 6" at a 90* angle welded/glued/etc in the center. Then line up the caps on the long side and make sure the center points directly at the PA.

Any questions?

Thank you for uploading the photo and posting the explanation.  I had to read through it a few times, but I think I got it.  I appreciate the help.  I'm sorry it took so long to post a thank you.

David

[page]

1) While I understand somewhat about phase, how does seperating the 414 from the mike stand (with 4011s in ORTF configuration) help with the phase issues?  And how far does it need to be?

A picture will illustrate this better then I could ever explain it. If nobody beats me, I'll try and snap one tonight or tomorrow.

Please!  That would be greatly appreciated.

You see (on each side) three lines originating from the PA to the array, and a fourth line between the center caps and their respective sides. One (on each side) is going to the outer cap, one goes to the center cap, and the third is going to the middle between them.

The distance/length of the PA/cap lines should be the same (measured from the diaphragm), while the angle of that intersection from the center PA line to the 4th cap/cap line should be 90 degrees. That means that the sound will hit the center cap at the same time it hits the side cap for the side the PA is on. So, if properly setup, your PA should have minimal phase cancelation, while the further off access you get, the more smear you'll get.

The further back from the sound source, the less out front your center mic cap will be. It would be easy enough to construct some tools to simplify this in the field; A straight rod of 1' in length with another stick of say 6" at a 90* angle welded/glued/etc in the center. Then line up the caps on the long side and make sure the center points directly at the PA.

Any questions?

Thank you for uploading the photo and posting the explanation.  I had to read through it a few times, but I think I got it.  I appreciate the help.  I'm sorry it took so long to post a thank you.

David

No worries, if I'd thought ahead far enough I'd have labeled the lines A through D and referenced that. can't win them all.

Of course, real world setup probably wont achieve perfect results, but to try and minimize phase disruption (and I personally think that's worth trying hard for), refer to the above. Best of luck.

[notlance]

With two cards and multiple pattern mic, you could use do either of my favorite mic techniques:

1. Double MS with one card Front, one card Back, and the 414 set to figure-8 as the Side.

2. NOS with center fill.  That is, I set up a NOS configuration (90 degree cards spaced 30 cm apart) with a center mic.  Sometimes I space the cards a little more than 30 cm, up to 60 cm apart.  The center mic's pattern can be anything from omni to figure-8.  If the room is good and the mics are close I'll pick omni for the center.  Bad room and or far back I'll set the center to card or hyper-card.  Usually I end up mixing in the center mic at about -6 to -10 dB relative to the L&R mics.  The center mic fills in the hole-in-the-middle, helps keep the musicians in the center fixed in the center, and can add some low end support to the sound.

I record mostly non-amplified music.  If I was recording a band with PA, I'd probably try the Double MS first just so I could try to control the amount of sound coming from the PA.

[sparkey]

DEATH RAY!!!!

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DEATH RAY!!!!