Topic: Cardioid Stereo vs. Split Omni's

[robotaper]

I'd like to hear thoughts/opinions regarding recording with cardioid stereo patterns (DIN, DINa, ORTF, etc.) vs. omni's run in a split configuration.  I am considering picking up a pair of AK 30 or AK 31 caps, but am willing to consider another mic altogether if someone has experience/opinion that might lean me in another direction.

-What's your recording preference and why? 
-Do you prefer Omni's outdoors vs. cardioids/hypers indoors or vice versa?
-What mic brand/model of omni do you/have you used?  What did you like about that mic?
-Do you have any sample recordings that you would cite as representative of an excellent omni/split omni recording?
-Do you have any war stories where the omni recording turned out less then desirable?
-What's the difference between the Neumann AK30 vs. AK31?

From what I've observed in the recordings I've listened to the omni's seem to produce a more natural sound, more representative of what an attendee at the show might have heard.  As with anything in our hobby it's all a point of personal preferrence though.

Rob O

[acidjack]

I wouldn't touch omnis indoors personally unless up pretty close.  Way too much room reflection in there.  Also, of course, they will pick up way more crowd noise. Depends what you like, but from where I tape (usually at the board) they'd be a disaster.  Indoors I like hypers or cards if it's a very nice room (or hypers+cards).  I've tried running omnis (4061s) plus hypers even in a nice room, and usually I end up using very little of the omni, just enough to fill out the bass if I feel it's needed.

People seem to be of the opinion that omnis are better outdoors because (a) you don't have the room-boom issue so there aren't nasty reflections to worry about and (b) they are less sensitive to wind noise. 

I tape only rarely outdoors, but when I do this summer, I'll probably try running my multipattern LDs in omni split and then maybe hypers or cards added in to compare and/or mix.

[SmokinJoe]

In most cases omnis are more "natural" sounding, for better or for worse... better if they pick up what you want to hear, worse if they pick up what you don't want to hear.  Omnis are more resistant to wind issues as well.

I listen using headphones and earbuds a lot, so that DIN'ish distance between the caps sounds "normal" to me.  Listening to a 20 foot split sounds whacko.  Even a 3' split is too much for my taste, 2 feet is not too bad.  I had some JZ's that I ran the omni caps outside last year quite a bit an NOS-like pattern 12-14 inches apart and I really liked them.  It's a bit wider than DIN, but not enough to create a huge "hole in the middle".  Those mics were great for that because they had a lot of sizzle and you tend to loose the high end at outdoor festivals.  Omni caps aren't perfectly omni... they are somewhat directional, especially the high frequencies.  That's why I tried pointing them out at 45* rather than straight ahead, and it worked well.

Last weekend I happen to ran omnis stage lip for a jazz/rock band.  It's not something I normally do, but it was a good night to experiment.  Todd used my CK62's and I used AT853's with omni caps (that's what I had handy).  For the 1st set we ran the omnis AB about 2' apart, the second set we went healey method, 180* x 12".  I preferred the healey, but probably because of the spacing.  Both sets sounded incredibly clean and realistic, like you were sitting on the floor stage lip.

It's said that it's much easier to make a low cost omni that sounds decent than it is to make a card or hyper that sounds decent.  Homebrew mics made with cheap Panasonic caps can sound surprisingly good.  Before dropping big bucks on Neumann caps, you might seriously think about picking up some whole omni mics that might sound almost as good for much less cost.  Play with setups and decide if omnis are something you like.  Then you have spare mics to use on rainy days, loaners, etc.

[F.O.Bean]

Very good info guys. And I HIGHLY prefer hypers vs. cards/omnis/subcards/etc....I HATE crowd noise/chatter, and run hypers 99% of the time. My hypers have made my recordings VERY CONSISTENT, and 99 out of 100 times, a kickass recording. Just run them DINa in the sweet spot, or point at the stacks in less than ideal settings.

[ArchivalAudio]

yes bean you love hypers!
to me they are often unnatural sounding ( not that I haven;t heard great recordings with them)

I like Cards or omnis - indoors Cards DIN or DINa or up close or onstage ORTF
spaced omnis onstage or way upfront outdoors is sweet (with blockers)
or figure 8's Blumlien  is awesome and totally natural! especially at or in-front of the sweetspot

[skaggs]

I prefer my spaced omnis outside, I specifically bought mine because of the wind issue for outside venues.  the crowd can be an issue during more quiet acoustic acts, but they do wonders for the wind say in Telluride.  I prefer the cardioids inside a nice sounding venue.  Here in Southern CO, many inside shows are chatty, and i defer to the hypers, but i personally think they are "thinner" sounding.  I am not sure if that is a correct technical term, but they help with chatty drunks and poor acoustics. 

I have Schoeps mk2s omnis, mk4 cardioids and mk 41 hypers. 

I have spaced the omnis from 6-15 or so feet with pretty good results, and i have a NOLA Fishwater 20 inch split bar, that i feel I have had mixed results with.  Sometimes one can't do the big splits, but the wind is still an issue.  thanks

richard

[goodcooker]

I borrowed a set of AK30s and used them at Wakarusa last year. I felt the results were mixed.

I really liked mixing the 3 ft split AK30s with a set of X/Y ADK A51s for Split Lip Rayfield http://www.archive.org/details/slr2010-06-03.matrix.ak30.ADKa51.flac16

For this UM set I ended up EQing quite a bit to cut bass and bump up the high mids http://www.archive.org/details/um2010-06-04.ak30split3ft

Less EQ applied here but some http://www.archive.org/details/mountainsprout2010-06-02.ak30.flac16 I was maybe 50 ft from the stage as opposed to 150 ft at the Mainstage.

If I was going to buy a pair of Neumann caps I'd get the AK43 subcards. They kill it every time, indoors or out. The AK30s sound ruler flat and for the type of festival shows I record outdoors I think they come out sounding a little dull. Closer is better since the highs degrade over distance. But the bass response is incredible and will shake the walls.

I agree with Joe on buying a pair of cheaper omnis to fool around with before dropping the coin on some 30s. I ran my SP C4s in a NOS type pattern outdoors and thought they sounded great after a little high end EQ tweak.

[robotaper]

Thanks for all of the input.  I agree with experimenting a bit with a cheaper mic option.  I just so happen to have a pair of CA-14 omni's here that I will probably start with.  That way can run both my cards with the omni's at the same time.  I will attempt to devise a split mounting system, and will try out the NOS technique discussed.

I've been listening to various recordings over the years that have featured the split omni technique, which is what got me started down this path.  I'd cite some of the 99 Panic tapes out there (Madison Theater for example) that sound pretty nice.  I've also been running my DPA 4061s with pretty great results lately so it got me thinking.

I like the idea of picking up a pair of AK 43's.  Those caps seem to pull the heat everytime.   

[skaggs]

Liveitup,

not sure how they compare, but my friend David in ATL, who comes to Telluride Bluegrass every year has the Neumann active set up ended up scoring a pair of km 183's in the yard sale for $850.  He consistently pulls great splits with those mics, and they were apparently cheaper than the caps for his active set up.  I would probably get the Neumann active set up, had i not gotten Schoeps when i could still afford them.  anyway, report back on utilizing the omnis indoors.  i have never tried.  Keep on splitin in the free world!

richard 

[Shadow_7]

I prefer OMNI.  Less sensitive to wind which is more distracting than crowd noise IMO.  Although most things that I record don't have very big crowds.  And/or they're somewhat respectful to the other ticket owners about it.  They are also far less sensitive to handling noise IMO.  If you don't have or use shock mounts.  And/or have them rigged up to a video device. 

But indoors, they can be quirky.  Too close to the back wall and they sound odd.  Low ceilings and also odd.  Ideally, high ceilings and at least 3' above the chattering heads.  But they do require some proximity in most cases to sound good.  i.e. If you're at more than 5x zoom to frame the group, you probably shouldn't use OMNI's IMO.  And I've also found myself doing some rather creative editing in terms of filters and EQ to get them where I want them to be sound wise.  i.e. a little high end bump, a low pass and high pass filter to trim off the extremes, and other oddities.  There is a certain clarity that I've gotten with cards that I have to almost synthesize with OMNI mics.

I still like OMNI though, they are very forgiving mics that make it harder to get bad results.  As long as your vantage point is somewhat optimal.  If your location sucks, what you hear is what you get in a lot of cases with OMNI mics.

[newplanet7]

Just to re-iterate what Joe said.
We both ran omnis stage lip last week at a B3 trio show. Ran a 2-2.5 ft split for set one and healy for set two.
I can hear the differences when playing back in headphones. Not sure I prefer one over the other yet.
The only times I have run omni's have been on stage and stage lip with what I consider great results.
Here is a sample of last weeks show.
Otis Grove @ The Press Room in Portsmouth, NH
http://home.comcast.net/~newplanet7/Mysamples/og2011-04-22s1t12.mp3

[newplanet7]

With all that said, sometimes I find the bass too bloated vs. cards.

[robotaper]

With all that said, sometimes I find the bass too bloated vs. cards.

Now that you mention bass bloating it reminds me of a Son Volt show I taped a few years back with the 4061's on a stand.  I didn't run a disc, and had the mics split about 2.5'.   The bass was very heavy.  Some EQ'ing in the end cleaned it up, however the bass was somewhat overpowering.  I'll have to dig that recording up.

Good discussion, and I'll take a look at the KM183's as well.