Topic: SBD Noob needs some basic information

[oldjoe38]

Can someone give me some basics when it comes to a decent SBD recording?

[printguy]

That's an awfully vague question. What do you want to know?

Take a feed from the soundboard and plug it in to your recorder is the basics.

[rastasean]

Take a look at this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145282.0

[hoppedup]

A decent soundboard recording depends on several factors.

To get the recording you are going to need a recording device and cables to connect to the board. You will generally find three types of outputs from soundboards: XLR, 1/4" TRS, and RCA. I carry one stereo RCA cable to 1/8" mini (that's what my recorder input is, YMMV) with XLR(M&F, just in case)>RCA and 1/4">RCA adapters.

Most important is the mix. Depending on the room, you may find that the output you are given is heavy on vocals and drums, two things that are mic'd and almost always come through the PA and not through amps on-stage. There are those rare exceptions where the sound guy mixes a separate output for tapers. I even had a sound guy tell me to come early the next time and bring headphones and I could mix my own feed. (I'm still surprised by this one.) I often have sound guys show me the slider or knob I can use for gain. Singer-songwriters are generally good for SBD recordings because there is often only vocals and a guitar, both coming through the PA.  Listen in on the feed from time to time. I recently had one of the coolest sound guys on the planet show me where to plug in. I didn't check the feed. He came over at set break and apologized for giving me his monitor feed instead of the PA mix. Luckily i didn't need to use it because I was running two sets of mics as well in a great sounding room.

You also need a decent recorder that can take a hot signal or some kind of inline attenuator just in case. Not every sound guy is gonna let you adjust your levels on the board or even adjust it for you. Just remember they are there to do a job, and it's not making sure you get a smokin' recording. You'll want to use some headphones to monitor the sound for a bit. Sometimes these digital recorders can be deceiving. The levels may look good on the readout but you could be getting a distorted mess depending on how hot the signal is out of the board. The Sony PCM M10 is a popular choice around here. I have the PCM D50 and I love it. The smaller, inexpensive Tascams DR-0x work well if you are on a budget and know what you are doing, but they will overload at a much lower level than the other recorders out there and will probably need some type of attenuation at some point. M-audio makes an inline attenuator for $20, but that adds another link in the chain and closes the price gap with the M10 a bit.

If you are going to be taping in the same venue a lot, get to know the sound guy. Find out his favorite drink or whatever and get him one from time to time, even if he gets it free from the venue. Compliment him on the mix and always say thank you for the patch.  The most important thing is to stay out of his way if he's busy. If the band starts and I'm not getting a signal, I usually don't speak up until set break. Or I wait until the sound is dialed in and try to let him know with hand signals. I have seen tapers frantically waving at the sound guy the second the first note hits and they are getting nothing. I have even seen people enter the soundboard cage or go crawling all over the back of the board, plugging and unplugging. Don't be that guy.

All that said, I only get board feeds in venues where the sound is crappy or the audiences are particularly loud. And then I often don't mix it in at all if the audience or stage lip recording sounds good.

[acidjack]

^^ All of that is good advice.  SBDs are generally worthless on their own.  SBD+ a stage lip or audience AUD, though, can be magical.  But if you only have a 2-channel unit, don't bother with SBD.

[slowburn]

Generally worthless is a little strong.

There are plenty of situations where a sbd are preferable to many tapers/listeners.

Type of music/instruments, size of room, how good the soundman is, what mics you have, how chatty the audience is etc etc will all be a factor.

There are plenty of shows where if I had to choose in advance I would go with a board tape.

[battery]

Most important is the mix. Depending on the room, you may find that the output you are given is heavy on vocals and drums, two things that are mic'd and almost always come through the PA and not through amps on-stage.

Would you mind giving a detailed explaination? i have no idea of the PA , amps……

[acidjack]

^^ .... maybe if you're pulling SBDs from large sheds on a regular basis, or custom mixes.  If you're getting the PA mix from a medium to small sized venue, you're getting a mix of predominantly vocals, drums and keyboards, and if you're lucky, maybe a little guitar and/or bass.  You are right that I'm approaching this from the perspective of a typical-size rock band.  If I were recording a solo acoustic performer, I might consider an SBD on its own. 

I would go so far as to say I could take any of the 100+ SBDs I've pulled in the past three years, and not one of them would be suitable as a standalone recording. Again, of the 3-6 person rock bands I typically record.

I just try to impress on people that SBDs are not all they're cracked up to be on their own because I know that people who don't know anything about taping and comment on LMA posts and such like to say a recording is "like an SBD" when they mean that it is a clear, well-balanced recording.  I think it offends to some degree those of us who know that making a good recording usually takes a little more than connecting some RCA outs to a cheap recorder.

[acidjack]

Most important is the mix. Depending on the room, you may find that the output you are given is heavy on vocals and drums, two things that are mic'd and almost always come through the PA and not through amps on-stage.

Would you mind giving a detailed explaination? i have no idea of the PA , amps……

What most people mean when they say they got an "SBD" is they connected their recorder to the 'REC OUT' or 'MIX OUT' of the soundboard, meaning they took, generally, a recording of the feed from the board to the PA system.  As slowburn correctly notes, it does depend on the music and the sound guy, but generally, if we're talking about a 4-5 person band in a small to midsize club, the PA is being fed something very different than what you hear in the venue.  Guitars are often not fed through the PA or fed at a low level because the guitar amps onstage provide enough sound on their own.  Vocals, because they obviously don't carry at all without sound reinforcement and have no monitors onstage facing the audience, are typically high in the mix.  Same with keyboards.

This is not *always* the case but again, I'd say even in the cases where I have actually had the band arrange for an improved SBD mix, the SBD still sounds "off" on its own because it doesn't capture the room.  This is partly why, for example, SNL and other late night TV shows often sound awful (I don't know for the life of me why these guys don't add some room mics). 

People on this board typically call standalone SBDs, even good ones, "sterile", which is what I'd call them as well. 

I could post plenty of comparisons for you from my matrix recordings of what the standalone SBD was vs. the final.  The SBD alone is pretty disappointing, usually.

[mattmiller]

Guitars are often not fed through the PA or fed at a low level because the guitar amps onstage provide enough sound on their own.  Vocals, because they obviously don't carry at all without sound reinforcement and have no monitors onstage facing the audience, are typically high in the mix.  Same with keyboards.

And guitars are often only in the PA mix in small amounts because they are picked up by the vocal mics.

[adrianf74]

^^ All of that is good advice.  SBDs are generally worthless on their own.  SBD+ a stage lip or audience AUD, though, can be magical.  But if you only have a 2-channel unit, don't bother with SBD.

That's a little harsh.  I've got a few soundboard recordings that are just stellar (i.e., perfectly balanced recordings) but these came from venues with excellent boards and sound people (and, quite possibly, luck of the draw).

However, I will concur that 9 times out of 10, I'll take the audience recording over the board as the board recording either sounds muddy, is imbalanced, etc.   Rooms have a strange way of also screwing with board recordings.

[Church-Audio]

^^ All of that is good advice.  SBDs are generally worthless on their own.  SBD+ a stage lip or audience AUD, though, can be magical.  But if you only have a 2-channel unit, don't bother with SBD.

That's a little harsh.  I've got a few soundboard recordings that are just stellar (i.e., perfectly balanced recordings) but these came from venues with excellent boards and sound people (and, quite possibly, luck of the draw).

However, I will concur that 9 times out of 10, I'll take the audience recording over the board as the board recording either sounds muddy, is imbalanced, etc.   Rooms have a strange way of also screwing with board recordings.

I have a sbd of a band I was doing sound for and the mix is perfect.. Not all sound guys are shit Generally speaking the lower the stage volume is or the bigger the venue is the better the SBD mix will be small clubs where the mixer is less than 50 feet from the stage will not generally result in a good tape. Why because way to much of the bands stage volume is in the room and not much of it is being put through the PA. Also small PA = Crap SBD if its speakers on a stick just say no to SBD. If its a nice looking room with a good PA and the mixer is more than 50 feet from the stage go for it. But than you are subject to the quality of the mix it self.

[acidjack]

^^ Also I think it's important to add that even if the ROOM sounds good with the current mix it doesn't always mean the board RECORDING will sound good, for the reasons Chris stated.  That said, if the guy running sound is good at his job AND he knows the mix will be recorded, then he might be able to change the mix you're getting vs. the room and make it sound pretty great.  In most cases where I personally pull boards, I'm just taking the PA feed, and in most of my rooms it's unpredictable how it'll sound, because the rooms aren't super-huge.  That said, even the SBD feeds from mid-size (500 to 1000) rooms that I've gotten where the room sounded GREAT were still not that pleasant to me to listen to on their own.

[runonce]

Guitars are often not fed through the PA or fed at a low level because the guitar amps onstage provide enough sound on their own.  Vocals, because they obviously don't carry at all without sound reinforcement and have no monitors onstage facing the audience, are typically high in the mix.  Same with keyboards.

And guitars are often only in the PA mix in small amounts because they are picked up by the vocal mics.

No offense Matt, but that has nothing to do with it...

Guitars aren't in the mix because they are LOUD...not because of bleed...

The "things" that make the least noise are mixed the loudest...vox, keys, acoustic guitar, even drums...this effect diminishes as the size of the room grows...big rooms tend to produce nice clean boards...small bars give the vox + drums effect.

[adrianf74]

I have a sbd of a band I was doing sound for and the mix is perfect.. Not all sound guys are shit Generally speaking the lower the stage volume is or the bigger the venue is the better the SBD mix will be small clubs where the mixer is less than 50 feet from the stage will not generally result in a good tape. Why because way to much of the bands stage volume is in the room and not much of it is being put through the PA. Also small PA = Crap SBD if its speakers on a stick just say no to SBD. If its a nice looking room with a good PA and the mixer is more than 50 feet from the stage go for it. But than you are subject to the quality of the mix it self.

I never said all sound guys are shit, Chris.  

Sometimes the best sound guy in the world can't help a room based on board location or size.  Without getting into specifics, a board tape that I have from The Mod Club sounds great  ... another one (different sound guy) at The Sound Academy is great as well.  Meanwhile, a board from a place like the Horseshoe is pointless as the boards around 45-50 feet from the stage. My audience recording (with your CA-14's and pre-amp smoked the board recording).   I also have another recording from a venue comparable in size to the 'shoe but it was pretty craptastic too based on both the sound guy and the venue itself.