Topic: Placement of mics for Front of lip recording when drum kit is in front

[phil_er_up]

Hi all,

Have a question about Placement of mics for Front of lip recording when drum kit is in front.

Been recording a band where the lead person is the drummer. The drum kit is dead center in the stage and about 2 feet from the stage lip. There are 3 members (bass, guitar and keys) on stage to the left and right of the drummer and one band member (electronics) in back of the drummer. Stage is about 20 X 15. Bands amps are pointed straight out toward the audience.  I have tried recording this band twice with 2 sets of aud mics on stage with a SBD feed in the dr680. Did not get great results with the AUD mics.

2 set up run so far:

Set up 1: One mic stand dead center on stage with one set of DPA 4022 mics with orft config and second set of mics DPA4027 are being used on a grace bar with it set at 10 CM apart.  Mics positioned toward amps at about 2.5 feet off stage or above kick drum but below cymbals. (I did not know the drummer was dead center until it was too late to change my rig)

This worked ok on one side of the kick drum but it would overload the pre's on the dr680. Mics sound had way to much drum in each recording.

Set up 2: Ran 2 mics stands on each side of drum and a SBD feed into the Tascam dr680. Mic stands about 8-10 feet apart. On each side of kick drum. On one mic stand,  ran one DPA4061 omni on a clamp with one DPA4022 on a shock mount pointed toward amps on stage with mic stand above kick drum but below cymbals . The DPA4061 ran hot on the heavy beats and I thought it would do to being on stage, but wanted to try this config to see how it did.

The 4061's had hot spots and I think the mics were to far apart and thus separation is not good. This was an experiment and I did not like how the mics sound came out.


Mics: DPA 4022, 4027, 4061.
Preamps:V3 and naiant big box.
Recorder: dr680

Any body have ideas on how I could improve my set up with the drum kit in the middle and which mics would be best to use where on stage?

Thanks!!!

[acidjack]

Would it be possible to get two small stands/lighstand bases (not a full stand - the $20 thing from B&H that is a foldable set of legs) and put one omni mic each on those, put at either end of the stage?  Then maybe run the 4027 in the middle, wide card.  I'd think the spaced omnis might give you more "stage" and being farther from the drums, less of that.  Plus depending how the PA is (if there is one) they'd also give you a little PA and room sound, which is always pleasant. 

Just a thought; have not tried this myself, but I record a lot of bands who set up this way and have often thought about how I'd mic it if I had a chance to do onstage.

[TNJazz]

Stereo pair on the drums and spot mic everything else.  Mix in post?

[phil_er_up]

Would it be possible to get two small stands/lighstand bases (not a full stand - the $20 thing from B&H that is a foldable set of legs) and put one omni mic each on those, put at either end of the stage?  Then maybe run the 4027 in the middle, wide card.  I'd think the spaced omnis might give you more "stage" and being farther from the drums, less of that.  Plus depending how the PA is (if there is one) they'd also give you a little PA and room sound, which is always pleasant. 

Just a thought; have not tried this myself, but I record a lot of bands who set up this way and have often thought about how I'd mic it if I had a chance to do onstage.

I have 4 mic stands:

3 small ones (2 feet to 7 feet) for Front Of Lip (FOL) recording and one large up to 11 feet. I was running the mics in the above config with the small mic stands. Why I bought 3 small mic stands was for FOL recordings: One in the middle and 2 for the the left/right side of stage. I could of run it this way but the mics in the middle are to close to the drum kit.

I like the idea of spacing out the omni more and then they would not get as strong of a signal - good idea!

There is a PA but it is about 3-4 feet from the stage toward the back of the room. So I could get some partial sound from them but not a full on sound.

Thanks for the input. It is appreciated.

[TNJazz]

What the hell is FOL ?

[acidjack]

^^ Yeah, intuitively, I would think spacing the omnis is your best bet, and run them maybe waist-high. For the mics on the drums, I suppose it's worth considering either running the 4027s higher to be further away from the kick, or just consider sticking with the 4022s ORTF so that at least relatively the pattern is less center-heavy. 

You could also experiment, instead of splitting the omnis, with splitting the 4027s.  That would give you less of the drums, too, compared to the omnis, although I'd think the omnis would give a more pleasant and natural sound in that config.

[runonce]

What does the soundboard mix include....?

[phil_er_up]

What the hell is FOL ?

Sorry TNJazz. FOL is Front of lip recordings!!! MY BAD for not being more precise!

Thanks.

[phil_er_up]

What does the soundboard mix include....?

The SBD mix is from a stereo 24 track SBD and all instruments/vocal are mic'd and run thru the board. Main emphasis for the feed was the vocals, drum and keys. Guitar, bass and electronics can be heard in the feed but are not as prominent as the  vocals, drum and keys. This can differ depending who is running the board that night.

[F.O.Bean]

ORTF

[runonce]

What does the soundboard mix include....?

The SBD mix is from a stereo 24 track SBD and all instruments/vocal are mic'd and run thru the board. Main emphasis for the feed was the vocals, drum and keys. Guitar, bass and electronics can be heard in the feed but are not as prominent as the  vocals, drum and keys. This can differ depending who is running the board that night.

Here's a crazy approach that I like...

Run your omnis split at an extreme width - like 15 feet...set up outside of the stage boundary and point toward the guitars and bass...

In - post pan those two channels closer together so you have less extreme, discrete left/right sounds....

Matrix that with your board feed...

I like the pan approach - you can get on the backline much more, and still control the separation...

[page]

What does the soundboard mix include....?

The SBD mix is from a stereo 24 track SBD and all instruments/vocal are mic'd and run thru the board. Main emphasis for the feed was the vocals, drum and keys. Guitar, bass and electronics can be heard in the feed but are not as prominent as the  vocals, drum and keys. This can differ depending who is running the board that night.

Here's a crazy approach that I like...

Run your omnis split at an extreme width - like 15 feet...set up outside of the stage boundary and point toward the guitars and bass...

In - post pan those two channels closer together so you have less extreme, discrete left/right sounds....

Matrix that with your board feed...

I like the pan approach - you can get on the backline much more, and still control the separation...

Pretty much if I wasn't going to take the spot mic suggestion (which really is the *best* possible solution plus the sbd feed in this instance), I'd do this. Space the omnis as far away from each other as reasonably possible while being equidistant from the center of the mix (assuming it's the kick drum), then in post you find a kick drum hit and shuffle one channel ahead/back so that the kick drum hit is as phase coherent as possible, then listen. If it's too wide, pan it together just a touch but ultimate it will be a very wide stereo mic.

[Gutbucket]

I like the wide spaced omni ideas too, as long as you use something else to fill in the weak center and capture good up front drum kit presence.

Otherwise I would have suggested less spacing between the 4061s if using them as the primary stereo pair.  Like maybe 4', no more than 5' between them max, if not using another mic in the center.  Curious though, with setup 2 are you saying the 4061's were overloading the DR-680 input stage even with the recorder set at minimum gain?  Really?

I posted photos in the current on-stage taping thread last Friday of my on-stage/lip setup for a center stage drum kit trio the night before.   Of the 3 spaced 4060s, the center one was just slightly more than 2', maybe 3' in front of the drum kit.  Granted it was an electric jazz trio without a PA and not rock, but got pretty heated at the climaxes and drum solos.  The 4060's are significantly more sensitive than 4061 and didn't clip my OCM R-44 set at input level 8 for those three channels (two more clicks of lower input sensitivity left on the detented outer gain knobs).  Just suprised the 4061s clipped the DR680 inputs at minimum gain.  Frequency was a bit bright with the short grids on at that proximity to the cymbals though, no grids would probably have been better, but its easily EQ'd. 

[edit- here's the best photo below.  The three 4060s were taped to the curved rods, the other mics were for two seperate recordings: ADK TL's in M/S and Core Tetramic above the TLs, both into a stock DR680]

[phil_er_up]

Curious though, with setup 2 are you saying the 4061's were overloading the DR-680 input stage even with the recorder set at minimum gain?  Really?

....Just suprised the 4061s clipped the DR680 inputs at minimum gain.

First thanks for your input Gutbucket it is appreciated as well as all the others too.

Second to try and answer your question you are correct that I was not running the 4061s at minimum gain.
If I recall correctly the Dr680 record levels for the 4061 were set at -8 to -12 range. The band had the kick drum up in the mix and the  drummer really pounds the kick drum, so SPL is really high during those heavy beats and rest of music almost registers low compared to those signals on the DR680 recd levels meters. Again if I recall correctly even with the Dr680 record levels for the 4061 set at -8 to -12 range, I had a hard time keeping it from really jumping when the kick drum was struck. It would go over the -16 RMS line and then overload.

I knew I could record lower level on the Dr680 thou I was hesitant due to the Recd levels signal on the DR680 would not of hit the -16 RMS line and only kick would really be loud in the recording then. Was trying to use 4061's to capture the overall sound of the stage not a heavy presence of kick drum.

If I am not seeing something properly or need to be educated please feel free to do so.

Thanks again for all's input...you have given me different and ideas and suggestions.