Topic: Need some advice on starting levels.

[tay666]

Ok, here are the highlights.
Just got a new Tascam DR-2D
The first show I am going to tape with it, is in under 2 weeks. So I have no real chance to take it for a test drive.
Need some suggestions where I should start off with the settings on the dr-2d.

It's going to be an outdoor amphitheater.
Loud, metal show.
I'll be in the section right behind the pit. About 15 rows back, and just right of center.

I know I need to set the mic sensitivity to low.
And that I can adjust the levels as I go.
But I don't know where I should start out with my levels.
And most importantly what to set the low cut filter at.

I'm going to be using the crappy Sony ECM-DS70P mic.
Which just doesn't handle bass at all.
Here are some samples that I recorded in a similar situation with the same mics. Just with my D8.
http://www.tylisaari.com/misc/boots/sample/maiden2010sample1.mp3
http://www.tylisaari.com/misc/boots/sample/maiden2010sample2.mp3

So, what setting should I use for the low cut filter?
40 Hz, 80 Hz, or 120 Hz

[beatkilla]

I would turn off the low cut filter.That mic does not need any bass roll off.

[Belexes]

Run 24 bit, start the levels low -12 dB to -6 dB and boost in post.

[rhinowing]

yeah, definitely start low on the recorder and then bump them up...it's something that will become easy to guess once you tape more

[tay666]

So, don't even bother with the low cut filter.
Cool.
One less thing to worry about then.

Looking forward to trying this recorder out.
It's so much lighter than the brick.
That D8 was making my back hurt after standing for hours with it in my coat pocket.

[tbger]

Tay666,

I'm glad to see you've stepped up from the Sony DAT.  I remember when you bought it and asked for advice on the IM forums.

This microphone is just crap - I'd warmly suggest you get at least the ECM-719 form Sony (off ebay at ~50 USD).  It'll provide you a much more dynamic sound, so what you can actually listen to your shows in post, and not just hear something close to 50's radio quality.

It doesn't handle bass at all, I'd suggest you use the 80 Hz option, this will leave most of the frequencies which the ECM-DS70P holds adequately. It is fairly more critical in closed room or halls, where you will have to use the 120 Hz option.  Of course you can use sealed (IEM) headphones during the first couple songs to make sure there's no distortion, then choose the bass filter accordingly.  You will not be able to simulate this with normal home gear by the way (no effective results).

I'd get the ECM-719, even when it's solely for this concert.  Or, as a better option for the long run, check the Yard Sale here for Church Audio microphones in your area and try to get them shipped before the show.

[adrianf74]

Another option for cheap mics would be to pick up a pair of used Churh Audio CAFS omnis in the yard when they come up.  They're decent little mics and QUITE small.  I use them in conjuction with a Church Audio Ugly Battery Box (quite small as well) when I need to be 007 and can't bring in my Church Audio CA-14 mics with preamp.    You should be able to find a used pair of the mics for around US$80 and the battery box may have to be ordered from Chris as I seldom see them in the Yard.   You could also look for another small battery box as well if you don't mind something a little larger. 

I would never use the mics on a recorder.  EVER.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Just got a new Tascam DR-2D
The first show I am going to tape with it, is in under 2 weeks. So I have no real chance to take it for a test drive.

That sounds like a huge amount of time to find some music to record.

You don't have to like it.  In fact, it's much better that you don't.  That way you can try different settings and take great notes for your post analysis.

[fmaderjr]

Just got a new Tascam DR-2D
The first show I am going to tape with it, is in under 2 weeks. So I have no real chance to take it for a test drive.

That sounds like a huge amount of time to find some music to record.

You don't have to like it.  In fact, it's much better that you don't.  That way you can try different settings and take great notes for your post analysis.

And get some better mics as soon as you can. Church Audio mics with your old DAT would sound far better than your Sony mic into the best recorder available. In general, you should upgrade your mics before you upgrade your recorder if you can only afford to do one thing at a time.

[tay666]

Thanks all for the input.
Trust me, new mics are next on the list.
Just no cash between now and the show. I've barely got enough gas money to get me there and back as it is.
The reason I got the DR-2D before new mics though, was I stumbled across one at a price I just couldn't pass up. You just don't find them brand new and in the box for under $140 all that often.

On the mics, I figured better to just stand pat for now, and get something good later.
Better not to waste the money on a slight upgrade and then upgrade again later on.
I know I am not going to get a stellar recording. But I am going to the concert anyway, because I want to see the show. Might as well test out the new recorder, and get used to it.
And I doubt anyone else will be taping the show, So I at least will have something to remember the show by.
Just wanted to get an idea of what I could do to optimize my chances of getting something decent with the equipment I currently have.

[F.O.Bean]

Thats just it tho, IMO, CA mics are certainly an upgarde for pretty much every mic within a $500 range, at least IMHO With them, you CAN get stellar results I used my CA mics for about 10 sets of music now, and EVERYTHING I have recorded sounds KILLER. I am ALWAYS in the FOB/DFC spot tho, so everything you run there sounds amazing most of the time

I got my mk41/KCY/Lemosax combo for 3k and I paid $100.00 for my CA-14 Cards, and they sound almost as good as my mk41's do They are VERY CONSISTENT little mics and outperform anything in their price range, IMO of course

[tay666]

Will keep that in mind when I actually have some cash for mic shopping.
Though I will probably be looking at omni's instead of cards.
I just prefer the way omnis capture the full feel of the show.

[gratefulphish]

Bit buckets are bit buckets, but they are never going to sound any better than the mics doing the recording.  I would follow the advice to use the bass roll off at 80 hz, since it is unlikely that the Sony mic is going to accurately reproduce any sound lower than that, and it will eliminate a lot of potential distortion, as well as lowering the overall signal level.  The joy of 24 bit recording is that you can run your levels very low, e.g. -12 db peaks, and then add the gain in post, without raising the noise floor.  This means that you don't really have to fiddle with anything, or be riding your meters as close to 0 db as possible.  If you can go to any local show between now and your planned event, check things out at different settings, take notes of what you were doing at different time intervals, and then listen to it back home to see what worked best. 

[tay666]

Thanks for the advice.
I don't plan on ridding the levels anyway.
One of the reasons I got the DR-2D.  I have the second recording at a lower level as back-up.
Figured I would set the levels once for the 1st stage, and just leave them there for all the bands.
Then set the levels again, when the main stage starts. And just let it run and see what happens.

As for local shows. There aren't many to speak of.
I'm in a small town, and work 6 days a week. So not much opportunity to get out to anywhere that does actually have live bands performing.
Most places around here just have karaoke.
 

[Gutbucket]

Is this an open recording situation?

If so and if your Sony mic is as bad as you and everyone else says it is, then you may be better off using the internal mics in the recorder. I know, Blasphemy!  But they really aren't that bad.

I've only used the internal mics  for recording my own guitar twanging around the house a few times, but the they are far better than the lackluster, too closely spaced omnis in the old R-09.  The mics in the DR2d are are cardioid and may work fine as long as you can get them up in the air and point the recorder in the right direction.  Only problem with that is if you screw the entire recorder to the top of a stand, the controls face the sky and you can't monitor levels or use the controls on the unit easily, however you can use the IR remote to control the transport and will be able to see the LED between input jacks to confirm that the deck is either paused (blinking) or recording (steady).  You need to point the remote at that LED when you use it.  If you end up doing that, then set the low cut to 40 or maybe 80Hz if the bass is really heavy and it might actually help, 120 Hz is too much and will sound thin, pale and wimpy, much like the snot nosed kid that will be standing next to you.  Might be fine for an 80's metal band that's all screach an no bottom balls, but you want some of the punch of that double-pedal kick drum that all self-respecting modern metal band drummer rock and the fat low-G bass, right? 

If you can't get the recorder up in the air on a stand, or set it or attach it somewhere with a clear and direct line of sight to the PA, then don't use the internals.  Do not try to record with the internals from your pocket, you'll only confirm the reasons that people say 'never use the internal mics'  .

If you use the Sony mic, the same advice applies- get the mic up in the air with a clean sight line to the PA.  Using the low cut on the  recorder will do nothing to keep the mic from overloading with bass or the input stage of the rocorder from saturating.  It will only remove some of the already distorted bass, which you can do a much better job of yourself afterwards with EQ on the computer. That's because the low cut is done after the input stage.  I'd set it to 40Hz and not worry or 80Hz if really bassy and you don't feel comfortable doing EQ later. 120Hz = skinny pale kid.

Regardless of the mics used, set the mic input to low sensitivity, and turn off the limiters and auto gain controls. Turn on dual recording and set it to -12dB.  Clap as loudly as you can near the mics as you set input levels so you are just below clipping on the loud claps.  Your second, lower-level file will have 12dB of additional headroom.

Go record some local bar band this weekend to figure it all out.  The ampitheater show will be the same, only louder.
When your big day arrives, you'll have the confidence of having done it already, go wherever it sounds cleanest in the venue and record from there.