Topic: sony d50 or d10 (only using built in mics)

[lt-cartman]

Hi all

Want your input on which unit would be better (using on board mics) for live taping of bands in small pubs / clubs.

Also if i have access to a line from a mixing desk will both models allow a line in / built in mic mix to be recorded live or is it a case of built in mics OR line in.

one last thing.

i know the m10 had 96khz sampling for the built in mics - is it correct to say that the m50 only offers 96khz for line in (cd optical etc) and only 44khz for the built in or external mic

thanks.

Toolman.

[fmaderjr]

Want your input on which unit would be better (using on board mics) for live taping of bands in small pubs / clubs.
Both have good sounding built in mics, but the D50 is likely to sound much more realistic since it has directional cardiods. Omnis, like the M10 has, will have a very poor stereo image when spaced a couple inches apart.

Be advised, though, that the M10 with CA-14 cards or omnis + a battery box will sound even better and should cost a bit less the a D50. It is also less of a hassle to record with external mics because you don't have to constantly be holding the recorder and (in the case of cardiods) aiming it at the source.

Also if i have access to a line from a mixing desk will both models allow a line in / built in mic mix to be recorded live or is it a case of built in mics OR line in.
Neither will, nor will the majority of the recorders favored by tapers.

i know the m10 had 96khz sampling for the built in mics - is it correct to say that the m50 only offers 96khz for line in (cd optical etc) and only 44khz for the built in or external mic
No. If you set it at 96 both mic in & the internal mics would be recorded at 96 as well

[adrianf74]

Want your input on which unit would be better (using on board mics) for live taping of bands in small pubs / clubs.
Both have good sounding built in mics, but the D50 is likely to sound much more realistic since it has directional cardiods. Omnis, like the M10 has, will have a very poor stereo image when spaced a couple inches apart.

Be advised, though, that the M10 with CA-14 cards or omnis + a battery box will sound even better and should cost a bit less the a D50. It is also less of a hassle to record with external mics because you don't have to constantly be holding the recorder and (in the case of cardiods) aiming it at the source.

Also if i have access to a line from a mixing desk will both models allow a line in / built in mic mix to be recorded live or is it a case of built in mics OR line in.
Neither will, nor will the majority of the recorders favored by tapers.

i know the m10 had 96khz sampling for the built in mics - is it correct to say that the m50 only offers 96khz for line in (cd optical etc) and only 44khz for the built in or external mic
No. If you set it at 96 both mic in & the internal mics would be recorded at 96 as well

What he said.  I'll just add that there's little (if anything) to be gained by running your recorder at 96kHz.  You're just wasting a lot of drive space later on for no real benefit -- even a friend who's running AKG 480's with a Tascam DR680 (and who often gets board access) refuses to run at 96kHz because of the amount of storage the files require.

[fmaderjr]

What he said.  I'll just add that there's little (if anything) to be gained by running your recorder at 96kHz.  You're just wasting a lot of drive space later on for no real benefit -- even a friend who's running AKG 480's with a Tascam DR680 (and who often gets board access) refuses to run at 96kHz because of the amount of storage the files require.

I agree. I've never once run at 96 and my recordings sound great (given a good source).

[lt-cartman]

Hi fmaderjr

thanks for quick reply

thanks for info on built in mics,

re the CA-14 cards & battery box - can you please post direct links to these items in an online store for their purchase it would be much appreciated. ( i have a lot of photographic / video experience but im only starting down the audio road atm)

On the cost (M10 + CARDS + BATTERY BOX) being cheaper than the d50 i MIGHT be able to pick one up soon for around €300 so taking into account that i can get a cousin in the USA to order me the sony m10 for $219 + shipping and ship it to me for a total roughly €190 is the sony d50 worth the extra €110

thanks for info on built in mic / line in recording same time = NO

Great to hear that the d50 can do 96khz also.

looking forward to your reply

RE - adrianf74

thanks for reply - just read on the forums that having the 96khz would give slightly more latitude for recording at a lower level (to avoid clipping) and being a 96khz signal it would enabling more of an increase in volume in post with out degrading the signal


Toolman

[Frequincy]

RE - adrianf74

thanks for reply - just read on the forums that having the 96khz would give slightly more latitude for recording at a lower level (to avoid clipping) and being a 96khz signal it would enabling more of an increase in volume in post with out degrading the signal

Toolman

Higher bit depth allows more headroom above the noise floor, allowing you to record at lower levels (to avoid clipping) and boost more in post before raising noise floor. Higher sample rates provide increased frequency response. 96kHz is a sample rate.

[lt-cartman]

hi trade count

re the 96khz - oops brain freeze there - got ya.

to all - any info on links for the CA-14 cards and battery box.

thanks in advance once again

Toolman

[fmaderjr]

Hi fmaderjr

re the CA-14 cards & battery box - can you please post direct links to these items in an online store for their purchase it would be much appreciated. ( i have a lot of photographic / video experience but im only starting down the audio road atm)
Contact Chris Church here and ask for a quote:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=14500
Don't use his E-Bay store. He gives tapersection members a discount, so send him a PM. Ask him about shipping time. The only downside of buying from him is that he has so many orders it can take him quite a while to ship.

On the cost (M10 + CARDS + BATTERY BOX) being cheaper than the d50 i MIGHT be able to pick one up soon for around €300 so taking into account that i can get a cousin in the USA to order me the sony m10 for $219 + shipping and ship it to me for a total roughly €190 is the sony d50 worth the extra €110
Probably not if you don't need the external mics to be cardiods or the digital in. The M10 is smaller and line in or mic in recordings should sound just as good.

thanks for reply - just read on the forums that having the 96khz would give slightly more latitude for recording at a lower level (to avoid clipping) and being a 96khz signal it would enabling more of an increase in volume in post with out degrading the signal
This is incorrect. As frequency says, it is recording at 24 bits instead of 16 bits that allows you to safely record at a lower level.


Toolman

[adrianf74]

Bit-depth of 24 is required for boosting without raising the noise floor too much.    I still aim to have peaks hitting around -10dB to -12dB when I'm rolling.  As far as rolling @ 96kHz, you're recording a lot of extra "nothing" as most mics will not benefit from the extra samples being recorded.  Even a friend who's running pretty expensive gear (AKG 480's) says, "why waste the space later?"  At 48/24, 2 hours of recording = approx 2GB.  At 96/24, 2 hours of recording = 4GB.  Even if you FLAC your source pulls for storage, you're still looking at at a 2-hour show taking up around 2.5-3GB vs 1-1.5GB.  I realise drive space is getting cheaper but I liken it to "digital hoarding." 

48/24 for the majority of what we're doing here is MORE THAN adequate (even possibly overkill).

@Lt-Cartman: Check "Retail Space" or go here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.msg1822869#msg1822869.   Chris is a good guy to deal with.

[lt-cartman]

re - adrianf74

yea makes a lot of sense thanks a mill.

re the price difference - if i can get a d50 for €300 or a m10 for €180 would the d50 be worth it at that price. (internal mics only)?

is "Chris" from "Church audio" ?
re church audio - "Bat 2B - Battery Box" http://church-audio.ca/viewitem.php?groupid=0&productid=6 (with a high pass filter of choice free) - would a high pass filter be advisable / usefull & if so what frequency would be best to ask for.

and would the CA 11 Cardioid - http://church-audio.ca/viewitem.php?groupid=1&productid=5 be good for recording live bands in pubs / clubs (any tips on placement of the ca11 mics is very much appreciated)

thanks again to all for all your help. its much appreciated.
Toolman

[adrianf74]

@Lt-Cartman: Yes, Chris Church is the owner/operator of "Church Audio."  Just PM him with your questions/concerns directly. 

To answer your questions, that battery box would work if you don't want a preamp (or want to travel light).  I wouldn't bother with any HPF/roll-off options as the cardioid mics (CA-11 and CA-14, for that matter) *DO NOT* require any roll off (cardioid mics, by nature, record less bass).  And yes, the CA-11 mic isn't a bad choice.  It's smaller and less noticeable than the CA-14.  With cardoid mics, the key is to get them as high as you can.  Think creatively but start with a ballcap.

[lt-cartman]

Hi adrianf74
thanks for another informative reply. Its appreciated
re the mics - I wont be "stealting" the recordings i will be video taping the bands with their consent - so getting them high should not be a problem.
re - (cardioid mics, by nature, record less bass) - interesting - would you still "feel" the base / bass drum in the recordings then?

re the ca-14 / ca-11 - apart from the ca-11s being a smaller size (and having a slightly higher end freq response according to church audio site) are they better than the ca-14's  (they don't seem to be listed on chris's site only the ca-10 and ca-11's

also any input on the possible d50 price of €300 compared to the m10 for €190 (using internal mic's until i get the external ones sorted) ?

thanks a million once again

Toolman.

[adrianf74]

@Lt-Cartman: You're certainly welcome.

Okay, if you have the ability to open record, then by all means, get them as high as you can in line with the PA System.  I presently use the CA-14 omnis, the CA-14 cards and the CAFS omni mics.  The cards definitely do pick up less bass (that's in their nature).  That's not to say that it will be missing, I find the CA-14 cards do a nice job of capturing bass and mids compared to any other mics in the same price-range (up to 3x as expensive).

The CA-14's are actually his "best" mics that he sells.  The CA-11's are considered a mid-level mic.  I haven't used the 11's but some people swear by them.  I've heard both good and bad recordngs made with all sorts of mics (including Church Audio) and as he did mention in a recent post, he's best to answer what the best solution will be based on location, etc.  I'd definitely shoot him an e-mail.

As far as the as the D50 vs. M10 goes, there are a lot of people in these parts who go with the M10 because it has a cleaner preamp on it (less noise).  Some of these folks are running mics that would be 10-to-15 more times expensive over the Church Audio ones you're considering.  Since you're looking at external mics, I'd say save the extra 40% premium unless you need digital in/out (but I doubt you do). 

Hopefully this helps.

[lt-cartman]

Hi adrianf74

Thanks again for the quick reply - its getting me more directed in what i need and i do thanks you for this.

re- CA-14 cards and the CAFS omni mic use - do the cafs omnis pick up more bass - in your situation what do you use the ca-14 and cafs mics for (steering towards the ca-14 atm)

Important - do you recommend the omni or cardio cm-14's

I will be emailing him in the morning (its gmt here and its 23:00 atm.

re- D50 vs. M10 - interesting I will take that very much under advisement re the cleaner pre amp of the m10. (by the end of the auction i am in for the d50 i'd say it will go for more than the €300 anyway so thats that. m10 it is.

re earlier post about the battery box instead of preamp (lighter load to carry) - would it be advisable to get a pre amp instead of the battery box (would this help with loud volume band gigs) (i presume the pre amp will supply the mics with power) - if so do you have any preference for any one of the pre amps he sells in particular. (and what settings do you use on your pre amp with the ca-14's)

thanks again for your help. m10 with ca14's - just need advice on pre amp / battery box combo

Toolman

[adrianf74]

@Lt-Cartman: Again, we're all here to help and I'm sure some others will chime in when they read the forum.  Everybody here is very helpful and informative and I believe in "what goes around comes around" (or karma) so... 

No, the CAFS are more of a stealth-like mic so I wouldn't recommend these in your application.  Obviously you want the best sound you can capture so I wouldn't consider these for one second.  I roll both open and stealth with all of the mics that I own; in the case of the cards, I use them when I'm in a room with a lot of chatty people or in a situation where I can't get close to the stacks otherwise I run the omnis. I'm partial to the sound of the omnis mics but this is my personal opinion.  You might like the cards better (or because of where you have to record from, you're a bit further back).  Cards will deflect talkers, etc., where as the omnis capture everything (but have a more "normal" sound to my ears). 

Pre-amp vs. Battery Box: The battery box supplies a fixed voltage to the mics so you'd need to adjust recording levels on the deck.  With the preamp, you can set the deck to unity (somewhere around 4 1/2) and then adjust on the preamp (starting around 12 o'clock and then dialing up or down as needed).  The preamp doesn't weigh that much and I usually try to record using it over just a battery box.  I like the 9100 (I use it myself) but, as mentioned before, the M10 has a low noise floor so you could just use the levels on the deck and run with a battery box.  It really comes down to preference.