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Author Topic: Newbie question about sample rates?  (Read 3159 times)

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Offline GreatGig

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Newbie question about sample rates?
« on: November 12, 2011, 02:29:15 PM »
Excuse the newbie question, but I'm looking for some advice regarding sample rates?

My SP-CMC-2 microphones just arrived today and I have an Alison Krauss concert tomorrow night, so I don't have much time to experiment! I intend to record the show with the levels set a little conservatively, as I don't want to be fiddling around and enjoy the show instead. There is no support act either to test my set-up, so I need to be organised as much as possible from the get-go. I have made a couple of recordings with my new M10 using the internal mics and have been pleased so far, but getting the levels correct I have learned can make or break a good recording.

I have read advice here that it is better so set a sample rate of 24bit, then you can boost low volume levels post show using Audacity or other programs, so this is what I intend to do. But is there any merit in using 24/96 as opposed to 24/48 or 24/44.1 - I'm a little unsure about this element, or what level to set?

Ordinarily I would run some field tests myself as I like to learn this way, but I just don't have the time to do this before tomorrow's gig, so any help would be much appreciated?
UK based taper: SP-CMC-2 > SP-SPSB-8 > SONY PCM-M10

Offline page

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 05:42:06 PM »
I have read advice here that it is better so set a sample rate of 24bit, then you can boost low volume levels post show using Audacity or other programs, so this is what I intend to do. But is there any merit in using 24/96 as opposed to 24/48 or 24/44.1 - I'm a little unsure about this element, or what level to set?

Nope. I wouldn't sweat it for what you're doing.

Use 24bit and either 44.1 or 48k (depends on what you want to do with it later, CDRs; 44.1, DVD audio; 48k, playing on your PC; either).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline Drgiggles1

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 07:19:50 PM »
As far as levels go are your mics going into a preamp or are they going directly in mic in on the M10 ? If preamp set the M10 to 4 and adjust the levels on the preamp accordingly. If going mic in, location makes a big difference. If you are relatively close to the stage I will set it to 3 initially. As the debate 48k vs 96k rages on I'm in the 96k camp as long as you have that capability. You may get a squeezebox one day and you will be able to play the 2496 files on your stereo off your computer. It really depends on how you wish to archive your recordings. I archive my captures in 16/44 and 24/96.
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Offline GreatGig

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 07:37:20 PM »
I'm going to be going mic in on the M10 and I'm quite close to the front as well, so I had thought about 3 or slightly less to start with. I take it mic sens should be High too? As for 48k vs 96k, I will be able to play both as I have a DAC capable of playing 24/96 direct from my PC into an amp - so as a novice, it seems sensible to record at 24/96..... but this is all new to me  ???

I would easily be able to archive as you do in 16/44 and 24/96.
UK based taper: SP-CMC-2 > SP-SPSB-8 > SONY PCM-M10

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 09:31:32 PM »
You want mic sensitivity set at LOW for sure,setting it at High will give you a distorted recording even if the levels look safe. I also record at 24  96.

dorrcoq

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2011, 11:59:54 PM »
Other than it takes more disc space and slightly longer processing time (bigger file), if you have the capability to run 24/96 there isn't any downside in doing so.  Better that, than wishing you had later. :)

Offline page

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 12:09:42 AM »
Other than it takes more disc space and slightly longer processing time (bigger file), if you have the capability to run 24/96 there isn't any downside in doing so.  Better that, than wishing you had later. :)

I can't reliably hear over 16khz and 44.1 sampling tops out at 22 something. What benefit is there for me to sample in the 30khz range when I'm not going to hear it and I won't be slowing down the audio to push that information into lower bands...

If you have an excellent resample algorithm and the space then there isn't any harm, I agree, otherwise I'm not sure you're getting any benefit, let alone an optimum result. ymmv, either way, enjoy the show.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline GreatGig

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 07:26:38 AM »
Thanks for all the help guys, I feel a lot more confident - looking forward to the show lots now  :)

I will record at 24/96, as you are right, you can't go back and I have the disc space, so why not. I can get into the whys and wherefores when I gain some experience.
UK based taper: SP-CMC-2 > SP-SPSB-8 > SONY PCM-M10

Offline TimeBandit

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2011, 07:43:20 AM »
If you record amplified / PA powered bands recording in 96 khZ makes no sense (for me) usually you do really know the sounds system makes higher response on the stacks topping over 20 khZ frequency range.

reecordign ambient - nature or like that is maybe optional for 96 kHz

usually 24 / 48 is enough or if you don't have good plugins for dither down from 96 / 48 to 44 stay at 24Bit - 44 kHz. But some say it's "mystickal hifi bollocks" some not so you have to choose / learn by yourself.

important things for good quality: find out the sweet sounding spot on the venue - or especially on echoey venues - get as closest to the sound source as possible.
2015 rig: CA-11 -> CA-9100 -> PCM-M10
2016 rig: Sony PCM-M10 + SP-SPSB-4 microphone plug-in power supply +  SP-CMC8 with Low Sens mod
[backup: CA-9100 - Tascam DR-05 Firmware 2.0 + Yamaha Pocketrak W24]
video 2016: Casio EX-100 HS (same as Olympus Stylus1 - but much smaller - japan import not availiable in EU)

dorrcoq

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 03:44:38 PM »
Other than it takes more disc space and slightly longer processing time (bigger file), if you have the capability to run 24/96 there isn't any downside in doing so.  Better that, than wishing you had later. :)

I can't reliably hear over 16khz and 44.1 sampling tops out at 22 something. What benefit is there for me to sample in the 30khz range when I'm not going to hear it and I won't be slowing down the audio to push that information into lower bands...

If you have an excellent resample algorithm and the space then there isn't any harm, I agree, otherwise I'm not sure you're getting any benefit, let alone an optimum result. ymmv, either way, enjoy the show.

Well. I wasn't referring to LISTENING to it at 24/96, but it does give a better quality recording to work on and eventually downsample

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 08:13:37 PM »
I'm with page.  I can't hear a difference in critical listening tests between my 96 kHz vs 48kHz recordings of unamplified acoustic material where higher sample rates may actually catch additional angel harp harmonics and use less steep highpass filters on them than those required with lower sampling rates (which is the one aspect for which I can entertain the idea of a plausible agrument for an audible difference) .  Yet I also don't make much of an effort to persuade others to listen closely and make their own conclusions on it because it causes no harm other than consuming twice as much storage space, so err'ing on the side of caution is harmless and perhaps wise as long as storage space isn't an issue. 

However in the practical world, storage space becomes a very real problem. 

Just to nip one persistant misunderstanding about higher sample rates, understand that by recording at a higher rate you do not record the frequency range that would be covered by a lower sampling rate at a 'higher resolution', you only extend the upper range of frequencies that can potentially be recorded.  Actually recording those ultrasonic frequencies requires that they are present to begin with and that your equipment is sensitive to them and can transmit them to the recorder.  Maybe they are and maybe it does, maybe not.  At least you can look for them when analyzing the files in DAW software to visually confirm if there is anything up there at all.. though even if you see something up there it may only be noise.

My personal assement and sugestion goes something like this: I always record 24 bits.  The improvement in dynamic headroom over recording 16 bits is real at the recording end and allows freedom in setting levels and not clipping. That very real recording end improvement over recording 16 bits increases my file sizes by 50%.  I can live with that. My equipment will record at 96 or even 192 kHz but even for pristine on-stage acoustic matierial I don't use those rates.  Once you've amassed a personal recorded library of several Terabytes, keeping the library managable and redundantly backed up becomes a real practical challenge.  As my recording techniques have evolved to multi-channel, I REALLY don't even consider using higher rates for the close acoustic stuff- the files for a single show would double in size if I switched from 48 to 96 kHz, and for some admittedly overblown efforts that have used like 11 or 13 channels that would mean going from something like 15-20 GB of raw data to 30-40GB for a single show for the raw audio files alone, much less any photos or video.. and for more typical stuff it means going from something like 30-40 GB of raw file storage for a music festival of 4-channel recordings to twice that.  Stick with the hobby for long and you'll amass large amounts of data more much rapidly than you think.

When it comes down to brass tacks, consider that nearly absolutely everything else you do will have a far, far larger sonic concequences (your recording location, the recording venue, the stage / FOH setup, mics, connnections, your processing choices) and so it's really a moot point that doesn't merit much argument eitherway.

For all the technical talk, good recordings mostly boil down to getting the practical stuff right and making sure things work and do so smoothly.  Workflow practicalities become far more important than the last 99th percentile of perfection. Most improvement comes from concentrating on mics, choice of mic array and recording position.. and leaning your own ways of working smoothly to record without stress or hassle.

I'm glad I listened and convinced myself with good equipment that it didn't make any audible difference to my ear because the size of my library really does matter. A lot!


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Offline notlance

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 01:25:52 AM »
I'm with page.  I can't hear a difference in critical listening tests between my 96 kHz vs 48kHz recordings of unamplified acoustic material where higher sample rates may actually catch additional angel harp harmonics and use less steep highpass filters on them than those required with lower sampling rates (which is the one aspect for which I can entertain the idea of a plausible agrument for an audible difference).

First of all, I agree with your post completely.   There are many, many aspects of the recording art that are far more important than sample rate.  I have a hard time thinking of a recording variable that does not have more impact than sample rate.

I quoted the above because I do not think the steepness of the anti-aliasing filter is much of a concern.  For years now ADCs have used oversampling to allow the use of a much less steep analog filter.  The days of the brick-wall analog filter are long gone.  A properly designed and implemented oversampling ADC can sound just fine at 44.1 kHz.

Call me a leaden-eared Neanderthal, but I record at 44.1 kHz, and I don't think I'm missing anything.  Since my end product most of the time is a CD, (like I said, I'm a Neanderthal) I'd rather save the memory space and not go though the sample rate conversion (although perfect SRC is not a difficult algorithm).  Perhaps 90% of what I record is acoustic music, and I have some very picky clients.  Not one has said "This recording would have been great if you had sampled at 96 kHz."
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 01:41:06 AM by notlance »

Offline TimeBandit

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 09:49:12 AM »
To sort out (short versions fromn the statements above). 24 Bit is always the choice you got more improvement for later masterings or if you recorded too quiet you can raise more gain.

The sample rate - 48 k or 96 k is Ok for natural sounds, or acoustic bands. But even another thought why record in 96k when your mic / pre only goes up to 20 kHZ response ? it's (for me) just waste of space.

Otherwise if your recording equipment really goes far above the 20 kHz (the whole chain!) try it out for yourself.
2015 rig: CA-11 -> CA-9100 -> PCM-M10
2016 rig: Sony PCM-M10 + SP-SPSB-4 microphone plug-in power supply +  SP-CMC8 with Low Sens mod
[backup: CA-9100 - Tascam DR-05 Firmware 2.0 + Yamaha Pocketrak W24]
video 2016: Casio EX-100 HS (same as Olympus Stylus1 - but much smaller - japan import not availiable in EU)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Newbie question about sample rates?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 10:48:49 AM »
I don't want to complicate things, just acknowledge that there is an invisible elephant in the room.  Even though most everyone around here will agree on recording 24 bits verses 16, no ADCs are capable of actually translating a full 24 bits of dynamic range.  Even the greatest studio gear can only achieve maybe 22 bits or so. I'd be estatic to find my recorders achive 20 usable bits.  Many small handhelds may only get an extra bit or so of headroom over 16 when set to record 24 bit files, but even then, 17 bits beats 16 at the recording end by giving you 6dB more headroom to fit the dynamics into.  24 bit files can contain more range than any equipment available can produce, so as a storage format 24bits are more than enough.

The whole point is casting a big enough net to be sure to catch everything you want, without going overboard with too much excess netting.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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