Topic: Line input differences - are there any, or is it just A/D and level matching?

[Jema]

I recently bought a SD mixpre for work on film productions. My current recorder is a FR2-LE, and one obvious downside with this rig is not being able to use the mixpres balanced professional line output through XLR, as the LE can only take an unbalanced consumer level input (meaning tape out from the mixpre, 1/8 tele). This got me looking at recorders that were able to take a hot line input (such as the M10 or PMD661), but I've had some difficulty finding information about wether this actually has any affect on the noise floor. Apart from the line in comparisons done by Guysonic, the following post is the only one I've found that says something about it.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=148612.msg1900251#msg1900251
I believe you are misinterpreting the specs. A pro mixer with +4 out(Nominal) would have max levels around +24
The specs for the DR-07 and like consumer recorders say max input line level +6, +4, -4.. doesn't make any difference.. these are all -10 nominal levels, and could use some kind of pad or -10 output from a pro mixer.
Has nothing to do with signal to noise.. just level matching.

Guysonics tests does show a difference, but what's the cause? Is it mainly the dynamic range/snr of the A/D? Also, does a professional line level signal give better snr than consumer level, or is it just a matter of level matching with no affect on the result?

[notlance]

Also, does a professional line level signal give better snr than consumer level, or is it just a matter of level matching with no affect on the result?

In most cases it is just a matter of level matching without an audible change in SNR.  The unbalanced line from the Mixpre to the FR2-LE will probably have a greater effect on the SNR.

So why not just try it out since you've got the gear?  Connect the Mixpre to the FR2-LE, match the levels, and do some recording.  You can use either the Mixpre's Tape Out or pins 1 & 2 of the Line Outs.  If noise is a problem then you will have to find another solution.  I suspect everything will be OK.

[Jema]

Sorry for the time it took to respond.

I have of course tried using the mixpre's tape out into the LE (the main output is too strong), and I don't think I would have a problem with noise (maybe sometimes interference though, going unbalanced). I'm more curious to find out if there's any real differences out there, or if it's just splitting hairs.

I know most of todays recorders are very quiet compared to older equipment, and when compared to the noise in microphones and preamps it's often not something to worry about. But this is assuming that you record at somewhat high levels, which is often the case with music. I'm a film student, and I often record very quiet locations and need to have a lot of headroom to avoid unexpected peaks. It's not unusual to be at -20dBfs. The 95dB snr of the LE becomes in effect 75dB. This is probably still good enough, but is there a line?

[F.O.Bean]

Youre good to go bro. If I were you, just to cut down on size, I'd sell that LE in a heartbeat and buy a Sony M10. I like mine so much I just bought a 2nd M10 for my other rig. And I went from an SD 722>M10, and havent looked back not even once

[Jema]

I went from an SD 722>M10, and havent looked back not even once

That's quite the downgrade! It was justified I'm shure, regarding price and size, and from what I've read you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference when using them as simply a bitbucket with a good mixer in front. Working with film though, I would go for the SD for the reliability.

I've been wanting to buy an M10 for quite some time, but it's almost double the price in sweden and I can't justify it. I bought my LE used for a lower price than the M10 new (I have never seen a used M10 here). Buying from the US is not worth it with shipping and taxes.

Regardless, I don't think I would want to let go of my LE even if I got an M10. Since the LE's preamps are pretty good, I can use it as an all in one and use my mixpre in front of an H2 or similar when I'm hard pressed for more than two channels. Still waiting for that good deal on a reliable multichannel recorder...

[bryonsos]

Sorry for the time it took to respond.

I have of course tried using the mixpre's tape out into the LE (the main output is too strong), and I don't think I would have a problem with noise (maybe sometimes interference though, going unbalanced). I'm more curious to find out if there's any real differences out there, or if it's just splitting hairs.

I know most of todays recorders are very quiet compared to older equipment, and when compared to the noise in microphones and preamps it's often not something to worry about. But this is assuming that you record at somewhat high levels, which is often the case with music. I'm a film student, and I often record very quiet locations and need to have a lot of headroom to avoid unexpected peaks. It's not unusual to be at -20dBfs. The 95dB snr of the LE becomes in effect 75dB. This is probably still good enough, but is there a line?

I run the Mixpre tape out -> M10 all the time. I was initially worried about it being unbalanced, but I've never had a problem. Just use a high quality interconnect that is as short as is practical for your use. I think both Darktrain and Ted Gakidis will mail to Europe. I run Ted's cables exclusively now. IMHO good cables are one of the least expensive ways to improve your rig. Plus Ted's cables are just plain sexy!

[George2]

Fostex is the best of the small units. The clock is better.... it'll sync with film.
No problem running unbalanced.. has nothing to do with the quality of sound.
All these recorders are unbalanced internally anyway.

[Jema]

Better clock you say? This is interesting news to me. I tried searching on it a bit but couldn't find anything. What are you basing it on?

[dointhatrag]

Fostex is the best of the small units. The clock is better.... it'll sync with film.
No problem running unbalanced.. has nothing to do with the quality of sound.
All these recorders are unbalanced internally anyway.

well it will for about 1 hour.

It's still a great light weight unit.

[Brian Skalinder]

well it will for about 1 hour.

What happens at the 1 hr mark?

[dointhatrag]

well it will for about 1 hour.

What happens at the 1 hr mark?

I have done a good bit of audio for video using both the FR-2le and the sd722.  Syncing with video sources from GL-2's and panasonics and sony pro camera's.

When working in vegas syncing audio (fr-2le) and video sources I notice after about 70 minutes the waves start to loose sync. I am quite used to this when using lower quality recorders (they loose sync in about 30 minutes) So the quartz,crystal,oscillator what ever you wanna call it, in the FR-2LE is good in my opinion. My SD 722 does not loose sync with video at all (never worked with a sync job over 2 hour chunks).

Peace.

[Jema]

When working in vegas syncing audio (fr-2le) and video sources I notice after about 70 minutes the waves start to loose sync. I am quite used to this when using lower quality recorders (they loose sync in about 30 minutes) So the quartz,crystal,oscillator what ever you wanna call it, in the FR-2LE is good in my opinion.

This is good news for those doing a lot of interviews and documentary footage on a budget! What other cheaper recorders are you comparing to?

[dointhatrag]

When working in vegas syncing audio (fr-2le) and video sources I notice after about 70 minutes the waves start to loose sync. I am quite used to this when using lower quality recorders (they loose sync in about 30 minutes) So the quartz,crystal,oscillator what ever you wanna call it, in the FR-2LE is good in my opinion.

This is good news for those doing a lot of interviews and documentary footage on a budget! What other cheaper recorders are you comparing to?

Well I also use a Oade modded PMD620, this unit is amazingly clean, however the oscillator is not the best, I find myself re-syncing in about 20 minutes.

Peace.

[morst]

Well I also use a Oade modded PMD620, this unit is amazingly clean, however the oscillator is not the best, I find myself re-syncing in about 20 minutes.

If you don't use time-code, and don't have to re-sync/stretch sources, consider yourself lucky. Any two A>D devices will have sightly different clock rates if they're not locked. Can't blame one or the other if they don't match up.

[stevetoney]

^ Exactly.  I think the earlier comments are misleading regarding whether a devices clock is good or bad.  The only way to ensure synch is to use pro equipment and lock with time-code.  Dissing one piece of gear over another because 'the clock isn't good' simply because it doesn't have a clock that's exactly parallel to another clock is arbitrary because no two clocks are gonna parallel forever.