Topic: Recording jazz quintet picture/link to sound file

[thunderbolt]

Configuration is vocalist, drums, piano, bass, vibes.

Hard to be precise, but I'd guess the room is 40 x 75 with 20 foot ceilings (a large university band practice room).  Some folding panels behind band will constitute the only acoustic "treatment."  Room will be full with perhaps 200 people, which will dampen some of the floor reflections. 
PA will almost certainly be as crappy as it was last year.

I recorded this group last year with a stereo pair ORTF; first time I saw the room, it really sucked, and I was too far away.  This year I can run four tracks instead of two.

Mic locker:  Two AKG 480s with 61-63 caps; two AT4050s, one LDC stereo mic (three-pattern), one AT2050.  Obviously can't use them all.
SD744T with V3.

If it's like last year from left to right will be piano, vocalist out front 10-12 feet in front of band; drums, bass, vibes clumped behind her and to the right.

Some limitations as far as keeping sight lines for the audience.

My tentative plan:  A stereo mic in X-Y or M-S at the front, boomed, hanging upside down.  Leaning more towards X-Y since the figure 8 in a M-S would just pick up way to much room/reverb and no other instruments if placed in front of the vocalist.

Since this recording is at the request of the vocalist, and it is her recital, I feel like the clarity of her voice is essential.   Thinking I should perhaps mic her small monitor; the house sound will be crap.   A SDC cardioid on that?

Leaves one mic.  I was thinking perhaps a figure eight to pick up the drums/bass/vibes on one side and the piano on the other.  I could get them lined up to do that.  Nulls would be facing audience and the wall behind the band.

Another option would be stereo mic with omni outriggers.  I hate using omnis (unless close-mic'd) because of how echoey the room is.  I might be able to get as close as 10 feet, but would likely need to hang the mics from above rather than plunk a mic stand with a big stereo bar right in front.

Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

             

[page]

I'd run the best set of mics onstage, omni prefered but cardioid would be ok too, about 1-2 meters from the band. Any more then that and you start to get diffuse sound or PA sound. When setting up, I'd trend toward the basist as that will likely be the quietest instrument unless there is an amp for it and the drums can overpower most other stuff. Then get a sbd patch for just the vocal feed and mix that in later. Might even need to add a touch of reverb to the vocal to get it to sit in the mix properly as weird as that sounds, depends on how much stage bleed of the vocal you get (say, with the omnis).

I've done stuff similar to it with good results. You don't want to burn channels with close micing everything, but you want that upfront live sound from the instrument itself and not the PA reinforcement.

Since this is at the request of someone in the band, see if you can setup with them during load-in (ask the band, not necessarily the venue and then just show up with them). I totally milk that when I can.

[thunderbolt]

Hey Page,

Thanks for the response.  There won't be a soundboard feed.  This is really bush league.  Last year they turned on the mixer for the band, no one to man it, no FOH at all.  In other words, NO ONE bothered to set it up properly for the band.  I had to move the stand-mounted stacks into something approaching appropriate and rough-in levels.  I guess I need to have her demand that the university provide that support.  I was embarrassed for her last year.  My recording sucked partly due to me, and partly due to no one mixing at all.

[page]

Hey Page,

Thanks for the response.  There won't be a soundboard feed.  This is really bush league.  Last year they turned on the mixer for the band, no one to man it, no FOH at all.  In other words, NO ONE bothered to set it up properly for the band.  I had to move the stand-mounted stacks into something approaching appropriate and rough-in levels.  I guess I need to have her demand that the university provide that support.  I was embarrassed for her last year.  My recording sucked partly due to me, and partly due to no one mixing at all.

na, just take a small mic and strap it on the vocal mic stand so it picks up her voice. That gets tougher if she wants to handhold it, unless she's totally awesome and double fists it.  On the rooms where I've seen just a mixer or patch bay of sorts, there is sometimes a direct out and you could take that. Some recon would be in order to see what they've got. But yes, that's why I'd recommend getting stage sound instead of relying upon reinforcement like we usually do.

On that note, you could provide the vocal mic and offer a patch from your 744 analog out to their bay. The risk is that something goes wrong and you become part of the show, second just make sure you have a phantom power blocking adaptor between your deck and their equipment. I'm not sure I'd attempt that personally, but it's an option.

[Gutbucket]

Mmmm dig vibes.  I totally agree with Page.

Get a direct patch of the vocals if possible.  Put a stereo pair on-stage to catch the direct sound.

If it were me, and without seeing the setup, I'd put two omnis up, spaced say a meter apart and about 2 meters away.  If you can fly them great.. put them over her head, sort of like drum overheads for the entire band.  If the omnis scare you, go ORTF.  Use the extra channel to grab mostly the bass, but not superclose, get some snare too, vibe spill into it is also good.  Put that extra mic low on-stage like a meter away from the bass.  If there was another channel I'd mic the piano, but as long as the bass and drums are clear the piano is OK being slightly diffuse and distant.  The diffuse distance if the piano then sounds natrual and becomes layered 'depth'. Diffused distant drums and bass is mush.

Don't fear the omnis or the 3' spacing (I'm being conservative, even more could be fine) because when you mix it, both the direct vocal (which may need verb unless the board feed is wet enough) and the extra bass/drum channel will firm up and fill out the center with clean clear direct sound and the omnis will bloom nice and wide with ambience clean instumentals and fat sounding vibes.  In fact, depending on the musican placement, if it is really piano on one side, singer middle and drums, bass, vibes on the other, I might even orient the axis of the spaced omnis perpendicular to the front of the stage, bisecting the piano and other instruments and superimposing the two sides in the playback image, instead of the traditional way.  Can't tell without seeing it though.

oh other posts have happened.. posting anyway..

[Gutbucket]

More good suggestions Page.  'Bolt, you're better off with as little PA as possible, hopefully it's only for the vocals and nothing else goes in there.

If you have no other choice you can mic her monitor, but that would be my last choice.  Try and get a direct vocal from your own mic on the same stand, or patch from the mixer from her house mic first.

[Gutbucket]

Clarification on the no PA is better statement- If it's a reverberant room made for acoustic music (which it sounds like it is), a mediocre PA is likely to screw things up more than help for everything except the vocal.  That's not necessarily the case but likely.  If the bass is acoustic he might use an instrument amp to help bass level a bit.  I record a lot of jazz and classical in a great acoustic room at a nearby college and the sound in that room is fantastic..  until they turn on the PA to 'help' small jazz acts fill the room.  Then it's all boom and mush and PA sound bouncing around.  I really don't understand why they feel the need to use that at all for any act which doesn't have a vocal which requires it (I mean the popular music and jazz type 'mic is part of the instrument' vocal, not operatic belt-it-out singers who don't use a mic, at least not a close one.

Somehow quiet string quartets fill the same room just fine without a PA and no one complains about their low level. 

[thunderbolt]

I wish it were a good sounding room, Gut', but it ain't.  It's a rehearsal space large enough for a marching band, but not at all designed for decent acoustics.  It is a hell-hole acoustically.  I understand that on the one occasion that the jazz band was recorded in this space, the whole floor was covered with moving blankets.  There's nothing but concrete/tile floor, glass and brick.  No stage, no riser.

[ArchivalAudio]

this might sound crazy
If you can do a blumlien pair on stage  perhaps 2 to 4 feet from the bass, and one mic on the vocal stand one as an overhead on the vibes/piano.
you could get a nice ambient stage sound  and with an OH on the vibes it would also pick up other bleed trough instruments.
vox direct would be best.
or an ORTF pair as suggested  maybe even some strategically places spaced omnis instead
but this all depends on where the drums are in relation to the vibes and bass and or piano

sounds like fun
good luck!

[page]

I wish it were a good sounding room, Gut', but it ain't.  It's a rehearsal space large enough for a marching band, but not at all designed for decent acoustics.  It is a hell-hole acoustically.  I understand that on the one occasion that the jazz band was recorded in this space, the whole floor was covered with moving blankets.  There's nothing but concrete/tile floor, glass and brick.  No stage, no riser.

Then use the cardioids instead of the omnis and keep a tighter image. That sample I linked to was taped in what can affectionately be referred to as a shithole but you don't hear it (even after using a touch of parallel compression to bring up the minor details some). The key here is that the loudest thing is the direct sound and the reverberant field is at the back of the image (literally, the hall expands at the rejection area of the cardioids). I love seeing jazz gigs there because I can tape on stage or stage lip, but if I move back more then about 7 feet, it starts to sound like a normal crappy bar.

[Gutbucket]

Blumlien rocks in a good room, but I wouldnt' suggest it here.  It picks up just as much reverberant sound as omnis but is more sensitive to getting the placement just right.  I'm thinking more along the same lines as Page.

Even with a bummer of a badly reverberant room the same deal goes, even more so the less is more PA thing.  If the reverb quality bites you might simply use cards in place of the spaced omnis, spaced but still facing straight down so they maximally exclude excess reverberance.  They'll sound drier, which can help in a bad room, yet the spacing will keep them from sounding flat and narrow.  If that sounds too far out to you, maybe use a pair of cards in something like DIN, and move it close until all the instrument sources fit within about a 100 degree angle as seen from the mics.  But that's just my approach, getting more direct sound than reverberant sound is the key.

Whatever you end up doing, post back and let us know how it worked out.

[weroflu]

close mic the vocal, piano, bass, and vibes.
 
4 channels, easy peasy

let the drums bleed.

be careful of the piano and vibes as they can have strong transient peaks, esp the vibes. vibes do especially well with ribbon mics.

[thunderbolt]

Thanks to all for the suggestions; I think I'll have enough time to try a few configurations beforehand.  It certainly gives me way more direction.  I appreciate it.

Page, I really like your clip.  I hope I can get to the point where I can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  It sounds good.

[thunderbolt]

Here's a rough final mix of the first four-track I've ever done:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63277689/Between%20The%20Bars.wav

I recorded the gig with a LDC stereo mic in X/Y, placed about 3-4 feet in front of the singer, dead center of the combo.
I used a direct monitor feed from the bassist for track 3.
I used a direct monitor feed from the vocalist for track 4.

I doubled tracks one and two to provide more emphasis for piano (left) and vibes (right) and panned them 75% to their respective sides.
Mixed and rendered.

I had to decide what was most important, and I felt vocals and bass were.  Drums are prominent.  This snippet is one of the more quiet portions and makes it easier to hear the instruments.

Feedback appreciated, and thanks for all the suggestions.

[page]

I swear one of the tracks is out of phase (or more accurately, polarity). The stereo image cleared up fairly well when I flipped one of them, but the vocals didn't drop out which I would have expected it to had that been the problem unless there was something else done during the mixdown that I'm not aware/thinking of.

But yeah, well done, the vocals sit very well in the mix. Nice work.