Topic: Sennheiser 421's - still rockin' live recordings

[Jamos]

Hey all,
I am listening to a recording made the other night, w/Senn. 421's and it made me think about the recent discussion in the Yard Sale.  A dude is trying to sell his 421's and a few folks were speculating that these mics were just not popular for taping any longer since they were "old" and there were much better options now.

Anyway, have a listen to this 421 > SBM-1 > D8 recording:
http://archive.org/details/sf2012-03-30.cw

and then to this JW Mod 463 > Oade FR2LE recording from the same exact show:
http://archive.org/details/SF2012-03-30

Both are AUD's in a chatty room (Higher Ground in Burlington), but the 421 recording is much more enjoyable to my ears.  It seems more defined & musical, and less distant.

Just thought it was interesting and was curious what other folks thought. 

[acidjack]

I'm just listening on Westone 3s through my computer monitor, so my opinion is probably not worth much, but the 421s seem a little brighter and more open.  They certainly sound good to my ears.

Was anyone at that show actually like watching the show? Wow that crowd is chatty.

[Patrick]

I don't think it's so much the fact that they are "old" but the fact that they are dynamic mics.  On paper, it's unlikely that a classic snare/tom/brass/guitar amp microphone is also going to be the ideal audience taping microphone.  They are also some of the most peculiar designed mics with that EQ curve switch and the ridiculous mounting system.  But I have heard tapes sourced from 421's and they sound just fine somehow. 

[DigiGal]

TaperRob still uses Senn 421's at least for the last few years at Furthur shows thats what he was running.  Not sure if he is on this forum and haven't listened to his live streams but I don't think he posts his recordings.   Not certain but seems like I can remember seeing Senn 421's as well as Senn 441's used as vocal mics for some GD shows too.  The 421 roll-off switch tailors obviously their response curve, useful in voice over narration to control proximity effect with different voice talent and with voice over booth sizes.

[raymonda]

I would repeat that old is not an important variable, but rather the limitations of the 421 as used as a 2 point stereo mic is important. There are pleanty of old mics that are wonderful.  The 421 is a very good mic for certain applications, toms, cabs, and vocals. It will also do for overheads and flute but as a stereo pair it has limitations. I recorded some shows with these mics back in 83 and they gave great results, for the time. I preferred the sound of both the 441's and 421's over Nak 100 or 300's. But once I was able to buy a pair of 460's I never looked back. A nice pair of condensors usually have a lower noise floor and flatter frequency response. This usually allows for a recording that presents more detail and hall cues in a three dementional way, IMO. although, that is not to say that they can't make a satisfying recording........just that there are more options at the same or lower price that do a better job.

For $500.00 one can buy a pair of ADK A51TL's, used. I also have had the pleasure of recently using pair of of Cascade Fat Heads, a ribbon mic, on drums, as a stereo pair covering the kit. I was floored by these mics. Yes, they were dark and required some EQ'ing to bring out the sparkle in the highs, like many ribbons, which they had no problem doing. Man, did these mics sound great. You can buy a pair of these for $350, and to my ears they are a killer value.  There are a number of other great values that can be had, too.

BTW, back to Cascade, I like the Fat  heads so much I bought a pair of the Victors with Lundahl transformers. they are a long ribbon and have a more extended high end. I'll use them for a number of applications over the next few months and will report back. They wouldn't be the first mic I would go to for concert recording, since they are big, but under the right circumstance, if they turn out well, might be something special. I have high hopes for them, given how impressed i was with the Fat Heads. Sorry for the slight highjack.

[kirk97132]

My expereinces with the 421's & 441's are that for those mics to work as recording mics they like/want the volume to be loud.  Then the dynamic mic really starts to show it's stuff.  I still have sweet spot for the old 441 U's and have been very tempted to grab a set, but since I have the ADK TL's and I use EV ND-468's when micing toms it is just so damn hard to justify spending the cash on mics that could just end up sitting around only being used occasionally. 

[Jamos]

Yes, obviously "old" doesn't really have anything to do with it, beyond the fact that there have been many mics introduced since then...

GD did indeed use the 421's and 441's for all their vox for a while. 
They are time-tested, and are still called for in many situations (mic'ing all kinds of drums and other instruments).

And in my experience, what kirkd says is right on the money, they need to be cranked to really shine.

I just started listening to some more recent recordings of the Strangefolk reunion shows, and it looks like there are 6 or 7 different sources from the 3-31 show @ the State Theater in Maine.  Interesting to hear the differences between:

Senn 421 > SBM-1 > D8
MK41 > CMC6 > Sonosax R4
CCM4 > Littlebox > Edirol R44
km184 > Tascam hdp2
DPA 4011 > V3 > R44
AKG 483 > V2 > R44

check it out:
http://archive.org/search.php?query=%28collection%3AStrangefolk%20OR%20mediatype%3AStrangefolk%29%20AND%20-mediatype%3Acollection&sort=-date

[raymonda]

GD, used 421's but I don't ever remember them using 441's. At one point Dan used the 421's on almost everything. I picked up a 441 U and it works well in a lot of applications, it is like a more refined 421. Pick one up, and put it on your snare or sax. You'll like it.

[Patrick]

I also like the sound of the 441's but they are impossible to use onstage because of their length.  It's hard to believe that the 421 and 441 were such a popular live sound mic "back in the day."  It's all about making the smallest and most compact microphones for stages these days.

[newplanet7]

padelimike who was taping phish all over was using senn 441's~> r4 pro right up until 2011.
There weren't any revisions with the 441's so that point is moot, plus it's a super-card and not a cardioid like the 421's.
I never grabbed any phish from 3.0 but from the comments on etree is that his sources were preferred a lot of the time.
Just goes to show, you don't ever know...... 

[raymonda]

padelimike who was taping phish all over was using senn 441's~> r4 pro right up until 2011.
There weren't any revisions with the 441's so that point is moot, plus it's a super-card and not a cardioid like the 421's.
I never grabbed any phish from 3.0 but from the comments on etree is that his sources were preferred a lot of the time.
Just goes to show, you don't ever know...... 

The 441, 431 and 421 all are based off the same humbucking plateform. That is why there are alot of similarities between the 3 mics.

[kirk97132]

padelimike who was taping phish all over was using senn 441's~> r4 pro right up until 2011.
There weren't any revisions with the 441's so that point is moot, plus it's a super-card and not a cardioid like the 421's.
I never grabbed any phish from 3.0 but from the comments on etree is that his sources were preferred a lot of the time.
Just goes to show, you don't ever know...... 

441's have always managed to hold their own BUT there are revisions, yes there are a few different variations of the 441 with the newer versions being less sought after than the older "U" versions, and even those older versions I believe there are two styles one with a Tuchel and one with XLR..

[newplanet7]

I meant that they make them the same way as the old ones. Not so with the 421, hence the two versions.
The new 421 are actually manufactured in a different way. They weren't able to do the same with the 441 so they make them the same same way as they used to. The 441U still exists and are for sale new, there was no II version or second version. YES there were different connectors on the 441's just like the 421's.
I read an article on recording hacks a few years ago when I was researching the 421's. I was intrigued by using dynamic mics from the section so I looked it up.

EDIT:
The yardsale thread where the fella was selling his Senn 421 MKII that he says he bought in 1997 made no sense.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154101.0
This was one of the articles I read a while ago stating the MKII wasn't created until 2002.
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Sennheiser/MD-421

[raymonda]

Everything I know about the 441's is consistant with what Newplanet has reported. I am not aware of any revisions of substance that has occurred over over the production run with the 441's.

[John Willett]

Everything I know about the 441's is consistant with what Newplanet has reported. I am not aware of any revisions of substance that has occurred over over the production run with the 441's.

This is correct - there has been no change at all in the MD 441.

The MD 421 was changed as it was getting extremely expensive to produce.

Both the 421 and 441 were designed in the days when labour was cheap and technology was expensive.  However, nowadays the reverse is true.

Sennheiser managed to redesign the manufacturing of the 421 to make it more automatic (and therefore cheaper) without substantially changing the sound.  If they had not done this the 421 would have to sell at about double the price that is does now!

The 441 they could not change at all - they did try, but any changes changed the sound too much and thay have continued to make the 441 the same way they have always done.

There was a cheaper BF 541 version which removed the bass roll-off switch and only had an XLR on the end - this version was all black.